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LETTER: Prop B provides common-sense standards, not extremism

Friday, October 15, 2010 | 1:10 p.m. CDT; updated 11:54 a.m. CDT, Monday, October 25, 2010

Opponents of Proposition B, the Puppy Mill Cruelty Prevention Act, always rely on the same false claims that it is an unnecessary law backed by so-called extremists ("J. KARL MILLER: Tasers and breeding laws aren't broken, so no need to try and fix them," Oct. 13).

In truth, current laws are not strong enough to prevent abuses at Missouri puppy mills. At the estimated 3,000 puppy mills in our state, dogs are typically crowded into small and filthy cages, denied veterinary care, exposed to extremes of heat and cold, and given no exercise or affection. Puppy mill operators and their allies have been trying to obscure the fact that these facilities are cruel and the way these dogs are treated is wrong.

Prop B provides clear and common-sense standards of care for dogs at puppy mills. Many responsible dog breeders support the measure, along with Missouri veterinarians and vet clinics, the Humane Society of Missouri, businesses and religious leaders.

Prop B would only cover breeding dogs in large-scale, commercial puppy mills — no other kind of animal. It would require these facilities to provide the basics of humane care, such as adequate food, water, space and exercise. It would not affect livestock agriculture.

These modest standards would apply to both licensed and unlicensed puppy mills and provide law enforcement officials with new tools to enforce them. Tens of thousands of dogs are suffering in puppy mills across our state. We can change this for the better this November by voting "YES" on Prop B.

Tim Rickey is the senior director of the field investigations and response team for The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.


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Comments

Cody Hobbs October 15, 2010 | 3:26 p.m.

There are approx 3000 puppy mills in this state? I want to challenge you to tell where all these breeders are? I know that there approx 1200 LICENSED PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS in the state of Missouri but, 3000. You show me the list that has all of them and I will believe it until then I do not.

I cannot speak for everybody but, my dogs for one are not denied veterinary care and if I were to guess the 1200 LICENSED PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS in this state would do the same or there dogs would be dead!!!! If we do not take care of our dogs there is know way they can produce these 1,000,000 puppies you claim our dogs produce each year! My dogs are not in small cages as you claim. And all other LICENSED PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS in this state do not have their dogs in small cages either do to the fact we have regulations on the size our cages have to be! My dogs are given exercise, feed, water, proper shelter, and are played with and given affection everyday!!! They are treated better than most children!!! Yet you guys our worried about our dogs when there are kids out there treated way worse!!!

I challenge you to give the exact numbers of breeders and veterinary clinics. I also know that the Missouri Veterinary Medical Association is opposed to it which tells me there are a lot of vets out there who also oppose it. Every breeder I have talked to has also been against it!!

As for it not effecting the livestock in Missouri. You would be correct...Prop B would not effect all agriculture, but as we have all seen before the HSUS are very capable of going after all agriculture as they did with the Pork industry in Florida and as they did with the egg industry in California.

These standards are not modest, but unrealistic. Especially, the rule about the solid surfaces only. Wire is way healthier than a solid surface. Let me give you and example; if a dog goes to the bathroom on a solid surface they have to stand and set in it until it is washed or cleaned out the next time, as to where if there is wire the feces and urine can fall through onto a wash down underneath the cage so they do not have to lay and set in until the next time it is cleaned. Solid surfaces are incredibly hard to clean as well. The 50 dog limit is unreal!!! Animal welfare should not be about the amount of dogs you have but, about the care each dog is given!! My dogs are very well taken care of.

Lastly, explain to me how this is going to effect an unlicensed kennels. The current regulations do not even cover the unlicensed kennel do in large part to the fact they are UNLICENSED!!!!!

These standards will do nothing but put good professional breeders who do it the right way out of business and do nothing to the unlicensed ones!!! Vote NO ON PROP B

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 15, 2010 | 3:54 p.m.

Hey there.... guess what... even at 1200 licensed breeders... that still 3 times more than any state in the US! Most states have less than 50 licensed breeders. Why so many in Missouri? CAUSE OUR LAWS ARE THE WEAKEST IN THE NATION! We need PROP B!

If you are buying into the LIES on the so called "Alliance for Truth" site which really should be called "Alliance for LIES"... then you really need to do some more research!
.
I'LL TAKE MY FACTS FROM:
www.maal.org
www.hsmo.org
www.bbb.org (Even the BETTER BUSINESS BUREAUS SAYS WE NEED REFORM)

I'm a business owner & I run an ETHICAL business...I could CARE LESS if puppy mills shut down! I don't want that kind of money in Missouri & if you are so desperate for money that your willing to torture dogs for it.... then there is a special place in the afterlife waiting for you where it is REALLY HOT & NASTY!
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MISSOURIANS.... WE LIVE IN THE SHOW ME STATE.... HOW ABOUT SHOWING SOME COMPASSION!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 15, 2010 | 4:24 p.m.

Cody Hobbs,

Actually, there is exactly 1,451 licensed breeders in Missouri. I have that directly from the Missouri Department of Agriculture.

The other breeders making up the _estimated_ number are illegal breeders, or breeders that do not have to license with the State of Missouri. It is an estimate, but probably a pretty good one.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to access the Missouri inspection reports, but you can access the USDA inspection reports. There are many violations related to Kennel owners not providing adequate veterinarian care.

As for treated better than your children...do you also keep your children in wire cages?

What is the name of your kennel? Are you licensed from Missouri and USDA? If so, will you post a link to copies of your inspection reports?

How many adult intact dogs do you have? Do you have photos of your kennel? Do you invite the potential puppy owners to visit your kennel to meet the puppy before they take them home? How many puppies do you sell in a year? Do any of them go to a pet store? Do you sell to a broker like Hunte Corporation? Are you a Missouri Blue Ribbon Kennel?

You're making a lot of claims about your establishment, but we're expected to take your word. Tell us more about your wonderful breeding operation.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 15, 2010 | 4:30 p.m.

Oops, there _are_ exactly 1,451 breeders...

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 15, 2010 | 4:42 p.m.

Shelley Powers... KEEP TELLING IT LIKE IT IS! WE need to hear more of your voice here... A voice of reason! Wish we had more people in the world who stand up for what is right!
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MISSOURIANS.... WE ARE #1 IN METH LABS & PUPPY MILLS!
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HOW CAN WE BE PROUD TO LIVE IN SUCH A STATE?
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WE LIVE IN THE SHOW ME STATE.... HOW ABOUT SHOWING SOME COMPASSION!
.
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 5:26 p.m.

Shelley:
Granted that your reported 1,451 is accurate, why has it been reported that all 3,000 are all puppymills and anyone who is against the Proposition must be an illegal breeder or an irresponsible legal operator?
Before you just answered part of Cody's concern about that 3,000 puppymill figure, I was under the impression that there were about 1,500 legal, responsible, licensed businesses and 3,000 unlicensed breeders, where even most of them were not as bad or inhuman as HSUS likes to depict ALL people who provide a service in the dog industry to be.
Now, in the 11th hour, you begin to clarify the truth behind the propaganda of Proposition B?
Why not just admit that it is a poorly written, dangerous-to-businesses in Missouri, misguided Proposition and work with the good breeders and industry leaders to develop a plan for better enforcement of the 23 pages of legislation already on the books, sans the HSUS, the spawn of PETA. You might actually get better cooperation in the future, even from the small farmers which you now declare have lost your respect...
("A sad side effect of the battle for Proposition B (puppy mills) is my sympathy for small farmers has tanked http://bit.ly/bPUUtG
2:23 PM Oct 8th via web
.shelleypowers")
http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/...

("The only one who smells, @Humane_Watch is you and your campaign of misinformation and lies
4:16 PM Oct 14th via web
.shelleypowers")
http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/...

("The American Crossroads ads are so slimy, I feel like I need to take a shower every time I see one. I thought ads had to be truthful?
6:31 PM Oct 13th via web
.shelleypowers")
http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/...

("After this election, it's time to target blue dogs like Mary Landrieu and see if we can't find someone less Republican at heart
2:55 PM Oct 12th via web
.shelleypowers")
http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/...

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 15, 2010 | 5:39 p.m.

3000 is how many puppy mills are estimated total to be currently in Missouri. The numbers vary from year to year on how many actually get licensed. For 2010...Missouri has 1072 licensed by the US DEPT of Agriculture & 1568 licensed by MO Dept of AGriculture. Jon Hagler, the head of the MO Dept of Agriculture stated that the number was closer to 3000 ...that's where the 3000 number came from.
But that's not the point. the point is that the next closet states (Arkansas & Oklahoma) have a third LESS licensed breeders than Missouri!And Most states have less than 25-5- licensed breeders! WHY?: BEcause our laws attract the CESS POOL OF BREEDERS! We need better, stronger commercial dog breeding laws. That's why I, along with most Missourians will do the RIGHT thing & VOTE YES on Nov 2 for Prop B!

You are really are buying into the LIES & SCARE TACTICS from the opposition.
.
I'LL TAKE MY FACTS FROM:
www.maal.org
www.hsmo.org
www.bbb.org (Even the BETTER BUSINESS BUREAUS SAYS WE NEED REFORM)

I'm a conservative,female, business owner & I run an ETHICAL business...I could CARE LESS if puppy mills shut down! I don't want that kind of money in Missouri & if you are so desperate for money that your willing to torture dogs for it.... then there is a special place in the afterlife waiting for you where it is REALLY HOT & NASTY!
.
.
MISSOURIANS.... WE LIVE IN THE SHOW ME STATE.... HOW ABOUT SHOWING SOME COMPASSION!
.
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 15, 2010 | 6:03 p.m.

Ray Shapiro, sure you don't want to quote some of my HTML5 twitter comments, too? How about the ones on the Chilean miners?

I put my name against everything I post online, which is why I post under my name here. And I stand by everything I say.

I'm asking the same from Mr. Hobbs: you're saying you have a wonderful place--that's actually the main argument in your comment--but you're not providing a link to your kennel web page, or providing photo evidence, or even copies your inspection reports.

I would think that the breeders who comment or post opinions online against Proposition B would go out of their way to prove the accusations of breeder negligence wrong. The only one who has, Mr. Kimes, I think it was, was the only one who wouldn't be impacted by this new law.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 6:17 p.m.

Shelley Powers says:
("I put my name against everything I post online, which is why I post under my name here.")

Shelley:
You post under your full name here because it's required.
I've seen your postings under names which can easily be traced back to you.
Many of us do that for different reasons.
Get off the holier-than-thou act.
You're in my little domain now.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 6:31 p.m.

@Marina Shane:
You should compare notes with Shelley.
You are both spouting different numbers.
But I agree with you.
The numbers are not really the big issue.
(Except that HSUS and Barbara in St. Louis used the 3,000 figure to defame an entire industry.)
You people make me sick.
I hope you walk around St. Louis with your tails tucked between your legs after this Proposition gets voted down.
I really don't think you girls are capable of sitting at the table with Industry Leaders and decent No-Kill animal shelters to partner together to come up with ways to enforce good laws already on the books.
You're too far to the left to comprehend reasonable solutions to complicated problems.
I will however play with your nonsense until the November election. It's the only righteous and honorable thing I can do.
Shelley: See the light. Vote No on Proposition B.
Oh wait, you can't, those who are so far left are stuck in a dark corner...

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 15, 2010 | 8:10 p.m.

Your little domain? Seriously?

Does this publication know that you've claimed ownership of it? Are you the main editor? Don't tell me your a professor at the college.

OK, fine, it's your publication. You have pissed all over it, as a way of marking it as your own. You certainly do everything in your power to discourage other viewpoints.

Evidently the Missourian doesn't care for a diverse audience. Frankly, I would have expected better from a university publication that is supposedly teaching students of journalism.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 8:20 p.m.
(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 15, 2010 | 8:44 p.m.

Wow Shelley you have been busy since I was last here!!!

1. Do I keep my children in wire cages? I do not have any children and I do not know of any who are kept in wire cages however, I do know of children that live in filth, that are beaten, that are not allowed to go outside. These people have been turned in but, yet nothing is done about it!!

2.What is the name of my kennel? The name of my kennel is Hobbs Kennel

3. I do not currently have my USDA license because I sell strictly to the families that purchase my puppies. I do have a state licensed as I am a license breed. As far as the links go you have had no trouble finding them for anybody else so I figure you will have it up here rather quickly.

4. I have currently 20 intact dogs. 15 females 5 males.

5. I do not have photos of my kennel due to the fact no matter how nice it is you animal rights people will make it look way worse and just turn it to your favor.

6. I have invited many buyers out to my kennel to look at my facilities here...it is not something I like to do due to the fact that viruses can be tracked into the kennel unknowingly.

7. I sold a total of 13 puppies last year...and have sold 6 so far this year!!!

8. I am not a USDA licensed breeder so none of my puppies have went to pet stores because it is prohibited under federal law. A person cannot sell to any broker or pet store without a USDA license.

9. I am not a Blue Ribbon Kennel. Not sure why that is relevant here because I know a breeder who is a Blue Ribbon Kennel and under the guidelines of Prop B. She too will be out of business. I also know several very good breeders who are not a Blue Ribbon Kennel. That does not make you any less of a breeder if you do not have one!!!

Shelley I hope that I have answered your questions...if you have anymore please let me know...I would be more than happy to answer them.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 9:08 p.m.

Shelley Powers must either believe that good people in Missouri will not be hurt by this proposition or she really hates ALL breeders and many other businesses.

Shelley: Today the Dogs...Tomorrow the Dentists?
http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/...

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 15, 2010 | 9:15 p.m.

Thank you for your answer, Cody.

No one needs to go out of business. But yes, if this bill passes, you're most likely going to have to change your kennel, especially if your kennel is wire, or you don't have outside run access. And the Blue Ribbon kennel will, most likely, too.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 9:38 p.m.

Cody Hobbs said:
("...These standards are not modest, but unrealistic. Especially, the rule about the solid surfaces only. Wire is way healthier than a solid surface. Let me give you and example; if a dog goes to the bathroom on a solid surface they have to stand and set in it until it is washed or cleaned out the next time, as to where if there is wire the feces and urine can fall through onto a wash down underneath the cage so they do not have to lay and set in until the next time it is cleaned. Solid surfaces are incredibly hard to clean as well. The 50 dog limit is unreal!!! Animal welfare should not be about the amount of dogs you have but, about the care each dog is given!! My dogs are very well taken care of.")

So like Shelley Powers and her Proposition B authors know what's best for the dogs and the industry more so than the professionals.
If you haven't heard yet, I'll be voting No.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 10:44 p.m.

One of the best comments I have read which explains why a No vote on Proposition B is so important...
Part One:
Proposition B has been condemned by many individuals and organizations including: The Missouri Veterinary Medical Association, The Farm Bureau, and The American Kennel Club. They all know that the mandates are unfair to the kennel owners and the dogs. As a veterinarian, if I personally prescribed these changes, I would be guilty of malpractice. I personally believe along with many that this is purposely being done to end purebred dog breeding in this state and across America. They have attempted this in other states and it eventually ended in a battle with our livestock farmers.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 10:46 p.m.

Part Two:
Prop B will kill our economy. There are over 1400 licensed kennels. This would cause unemployment for thousands. It will also lead to the senseless euthanasia of thousands of kennel dogs to make the kennels comply to the fifty dog limit. It sickens me to think that we have a Prop B to free dogs when we have many kids trapped in horrible situations like meth labs. Our moral compass is off. We've forgotten the "human" part of humane. Those activists will be rolled over in the nursing home one day for a wipe of their behind. A young male orderly carves "Dirty Dog," into their skin and says, "Where was Prop K for kids?")

-- Posted by Not-Fooled on Fri, Oct 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM")
http://www.dddnews.com/story/1671929.htm...

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 15, 2010 | 11:36 p.m.

Wow, I'm gone for a couple of days and the lies just explode! I have read some incredible things about myself tonight and it just goes to show how the HSUS and it's affiliates stretch the truth. Imagine my surprise to find a website for the HSUS money grabbers, that lists me AND claims that I have 260 DOGS!! Holy cow Batman, when did that happen???? I actually have 70 adults, 50 females and 20 males. And then they made the assumption that I made $100,000 off those dogs. Wow, again, if my bank account only reflected you people's imaginations. And then again, that number was quoted as if it was a dirty word. I don't get that, when did it become a crime to make a living? They are spouting on there that is more than the average Missouri family makes a year, so? Tony LaRussa makes more than the un-average Missouri family a year, playing a game, but you people make him out to be a saint.

And yes, I got wrote up by the USDA, if only I had those mousetraps set and my feeders dusted, dang! Of course, then the HSUS would have been after me for killing the mice instead of relocating them!

I have raised dogs for 22 years, I bought my first 3 dogs in highschool and will never do anything else. This is what I love and what I will continue to do, I am more determined than ever to continue to do what I love. A perfectly legal, ETHICAL business, that provides people with much happiness.

And Shelley, next time you want to know something, just ask, I have nothing to hide. As a matter of fact, I can show anyone my MO inspection reports, I have never been wrote up by the state of Missouri. I can also send you my clean inspection from the USDA. Of course, that might not jive with your claims that I am a puppymill. It doesn't make as good press!
continued.

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 15, 2010 | 11:44 p.m.

I have a groomer that grooms my dogs twice a year, I have a weekly appointment with my Veterinarian, I spend $17,000 a year on dog food, I spend $12,000 a year on Vet care, I spend $4,000 a year on vaccines, I spend $5,000 a year on heat and air. My kennels cost me $100,000 and I am still paying on them, I will be paying on them for 20 years. I don't make a fortune in this business, I take care of my animals and I pay my bills, that's it folks, nothing more nothing less. My dogs come first in all things. I don't get holidays off, I don't get paid vacations. In fact, I can't do anything until I first think how it will affect my dogs. They are my livlihood and I take excellent care of them. They are in state of the art facilities with constant access to food, water and the outdoors. They are cleaned AT LEAST once a day everyday. They are up off the dirt in vinyl coated pens and their waste falls below them on washdowns that are cleaned daily. The puppies are raised up out of the dirt for their own safety and health. They are vaccinated according to a strict vaccination schedule, worked up between myself and my vet. They go to the vet starting at 6 weeks and go weekly until they go to their new homes. I spend hours with potential clients asking and answering hundreds of questions. I ship my puppies all over the country, or clients are more than welcome to pick their puppies up. I do not allow anyone physically inside my buildings for the health of the dogs and you have to wash your hands before you are allowed to touch the puppies. They are in climate controlled buildings with exhaust fans.

I play and socialize all of my puppies everyday!! I pet and love on and socialize all of my adults everyday!! I know them all by name and let them know they are loved. I retire my dogs at 6 years old or younger, if they don't turn out to be good for breeding. I find them homes or keep them if I can't. I euthanize dogs when they are too ill or too old and suffering. I don't like doing it, but that to is part of responsible ownership.

It takes me 5-6 hours everyday just to clean and feed my dogs. I spend another 3 hours a day playing with puppies and vaccinating puppies and checking adults and playing with adults. I then spend hours with clients, on the computer, taking pictures, delivering puppies. I am sometimes up all night with a dog, watching her to make sure nothing goes wrong. I recently met a new owner at PetSmart to help them shop for their new puppy!
continued...

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 15, 2010 | 11:45 p.m.

I take a great pride in my dogs and feel a great responsibility towards them. Just as I feel a responsibility to every puppy that is born. I have 3 and 4 generation dogs, I can tell you about their mother, father and grandparents. I know their personalities and take great care in matching a person with the right puppy. I follow up with my clients and work with them in the following weeks to ensure they have a great experience. Do I satisfy everyone all of the time? Of course not, no one can satisfy every single person. But I do try to work through problems with them.

I pay property taxes, I pay income tax, I pay sales tax, I pay for two licenses a year and I pay all my own bills!!

Now, you tell me where in all of that, that I am not taking care of my dogs.

Proposition B will require me to put all my dogs in the dirt and mud and try to raise healthy puppies that way. It will make my spacious pens obsolete and I will have to try and gut my facilities to give them all an individual condo to live in. It will demand that I get rid of 20 dogs. Why should someone be able to come in and tell me how many dogs I can breed. This is not retiring dogs, this is someone coming in and telling you to 'cull' dogs, that is a big difference. I have jumped through hoops to be able to run my facility to the degree I do and yes, I have always felt if I have to be licensed so should everyone else. So now, when I have worked so hard, you people come in and lump me in with the ones that I have always been horrified by. AND YOU WONDER WHY I WOULD BE OUTRAGED!! WHY I WOULD FIGHT FOR MY DOGS AND MY LIVLIHOOD!!

Animal Welfare is not about the quantity of dogs, it is about the care given to them and as long as I take great care of my dogs, why should I be penalized?

I am being slandered by the HSUS and it's affiliates for standing up for myself and what I believe in, so be it!! I am an American and I believe in free speech, free enterprise, And just because I disagree with someone does not mean that I am a bad person. This is a democracy and I have the right to my opinion, just as you do. I may not agree with you but you certainly have the right to tell your side of the story, as long as you remain truthful. But trying to slander someone and make them out to be 'inhumane' because they happen to disagree with you is low, even for the pro-Prop B people. I also believe in 'innocent until proven guilty'. Too bad they don't have the same views as my Constitution. I am very proud to be from Missouri, I think it is a beautiful state and that it has wonderful things to offer, including wonderful purebred puppies. And, anyone not proud of our state, should leave!
VOTE NO ON PROPOSITION B! If you truly believe it, you only have to say it once.

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 16, 2010 | 12:06 a.m.

Marina Shane and Shelley Powers,

1.what do you do for a living?
2.how are you regulated?
3.do you have surprise inspections 4 times a year?
4.do you allow just anyone into your home for any reason?
5.how many dogs do you have?
6.do you take them to the vet yearly?
7.do you ever cage them?
8.if so, for how long?
9.how much exercise do they get a day?
10.are they overweight?
11.do your children have their own individual rooms?
12.do they have unfettered access to the outdoors?
13.how much money do you make?
14.how do you spend your money?
15.what did you pay in taxes last year?
16.are you receiving government subsidies?
17.do you work for an animal welfare organization?
18.do you educate people on spaying and neutering their pets?
19.do you give to any charities?
20.do you believe in the Constitution?
21.do you believe in free speech?
22.do you believe in innocent until proven guilty?
23.do you believe in America?
24.do you believe in democracy?
25.do you believe there are ANY good dog breeders?
26.do you believe people have the right to make a living?
27.do you believe the life of an animal is greater than the life of a person?
28.do you believe people should be able to feed their children?
29.will you provide pictures of your home and children for complete strangers to view?
30.will you send us all of your business correspondance so we can see if you are on the up and up?
31.do you own any animals?
32.if so, what and how many?
33.are you a vegetarian?
34.do you believe in eating meat?
35.do you believe in milking cows?
36.do you believe in slaughtering hogs?
37.do you believe it ok to spread lies about someone just because they disagree with you?

Marina, Missouri IS the Show Me State, Show me a little consideration and intelligence. We are also the Cave State and known for our mules and reading some of the comments by the pro-prop b people, I can see why.
VOTE NO ON PROP B!

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 16, 2010 | 1:33 a.m.
(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 16, 2010 | 8:41 a.m.

Kara Crass, I'm not sure what web site you're talking about. I haven't seen anything that lists you with 260 dogs. I doubt it's an HSUS site, though. Perhaps you can provide a link.

If you are a commercial dog breeder, there are demands that go with that. This includes inspections, and it also includes meeting existing and new requirements.

You and Mr. Hobbs seem surprised by Proposition B. The work towards stricter management of commercial dog breeders has been happening for close to 20 years, or more. There has been attempts in the Missouri state legislature to tighten up requirements in past years, but the agricultural interests have managed to kill them.

There was even an attempt to pass a constitutional amendment that would prohibit any animal legislation from ever going to a direct vote of the people in this state. No other type of legislation would have been impacted--just that covering animals. You talk about freedom, but evidently such freedom doesn't apply to the voters.

Luckily, the bill was killed.

There is a growing climate in the country to close down or severely restrict commercial dog breeding operations. I notice that no large scale commercial dog breeder I've found online ever posts photos or videos of their operation. Instead, many give the impression that they are a small breeder with a few dogs lovingly hand cared for by cute little kids.

No mention is ever made about using puppy brokers, such as Manajen or Hunte; brokers that ship dozens, even hundreds of dogs at a time to pet stores, such as Petland. That moving puppies in the way these brokers do exposes the puppies to kennel cough and parvo.

Look up the words "pet shop parvo" or "pet store parvo" and see how wide spread this problem is.

You say you spend three hours a day playing with your adults and puppies, but you have, at this moment, 70 adult dogs. In the past, records show that you had, what was it? 97 adult dogs. And how many puppies at a time?

You are a large scale commercial dog breeder. And yes, Proposition B really is focused at folks like you.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 16, 2010 | 8:44 a.m.

Just to ensure there is no confusion, I do not work for HSUS or any other animal welfare organization. I do not speak for HSUS or any other animal welfare organization.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 16, 2010 | 10:39 a.m.

@Shelley:
Seems to me that some activists would rather pass more legislation to gum up the works then use channels that are already in place.
Here's a relatively new program. Why not work through them to help the cause of improving the industry?
So much money being spent on a campaign, filled with lobbying, and not on direct government support or direct services, seems to reek of a much bigger agenda.
What's your opinion on this program and why are you not supporting programs such as this...
http://www.joplinglobe.com/statenews/x21...
How many layers and programs does H$U$, the spawn of PETA want for their web in Missouri, anyway?
I guess when you got your lefty progressive liberal marching orders, "Prosecution Bark Alert" was to be ignored as pertinent.
Did they tell you that it's better to stir up trouble in an entire industry, like a good little radical, so that you can advance in their ranks?

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 16, 2010 | 2:47 p.m.

Kara Crass in IMHO is not worth replying to.... I've had it out with her on other boards & as far as I'm concerned she's just in it for the money, too. She PROFESSES her love for her dogs... & in her own way maybe she does... but i think what she spouts here is a bunch of SCARE TACTICS from people with vested money interests in skimping as much as possible to make a buck.

Prop B calls for the following:

Shall Missouri law be amended to:
•require large-scale dog breeding operations to provide each dog under their care with sufficient food, clean water, housing and space; necessary veterinary care; regular exercise and adequate rest between breeding cycles;

•prohibit any breeder from having more than 50 breeding dogs for the purpose of selling their puppies as pets; and

•create a misdemeanor crime of “puppy mill cruelty” for any violations?
_____________________________

GOOD breeders shouldn't have any issue with Prop B. It's just the ones that don't want to treat their dogs well & skimp on them that do. I'm sorry, but as a breeder if you can't do these simple things, then IMO You are a puppy miller! And i could Care Less what you think!

MISSOURIANS.... WE LIVE IN THE SHOW ME STATE....
HOW ABOUT SHOWING SOME COMPASSION!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!

STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
.
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!

(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 16, 2010 | 4:33 p.m.

I have tried to be nice but, my goodness there are some ignorant people on this site responding. I know Kara Crass personally!!! She is one of the best breeders, if not, the best breeder I have ever met. Her dogs are her life and she does nothing but, take great care of them!!!

Now about what you have in your last post Marina Shane:

if you look in the Missouri State Department of Agriculture and USDA laws you would know that Missouri dog breeders already have to give our dogs sufficient food, clean water, housing and space, vet care, and exercise. As far as regular rest between breeding cycles this can be an issue. Yes I understand your argument, but in my experience as a breeder when skipping cycles it can cause the females to have infections, it can cause them to not cycle regularly, and it makes them harder to get bred when they do cycle. There is also no difference in this as oppose to breeding a cow every time she comes into heat.

As for the 50 dog limit, in my opinion, it is nobodies business to tell me, as a breeder, to tell me how many dogs I can own! As I have said before, animal welfare is not about the number of animals you own but, about the care they are given!!

And the laws are so very vague that the misdemeanor crime could be for something as simple as a piece of food in the water bowl. Dogs do sometimes get there feed in the water bowl and there is a not a lot that can be done about it.

And according to you if we do not want to do these things we are a puppy miller!!! You have no idea what people like me or Kara Crass do on a daily basis or how hard we have to work everyday so stop setting there and claiming that you do!!!

PROP B is not something that is going to stop puppy mill abuse but, something is going to put GOOD BREEDERS out of business!!! Unlicensed; puppy mills are not going to be effected by this due to the fact they are UNLICENSED!!! Vote NO ON PROP B

(Report Comment)
Eddie Cooper October 16, 2010 | 5:22 p.m.

Puppy millers make MAKE SICK... Prop B needs a part added to it that if you're caught treating your dogs like crap that you get to live under the conditions you made them live in! Prop B has my vote!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 16, 2010 | 5:40 p.m.

I'm YES on PROP B!
I choose the side of compassion toward dogs kept for their whole lives in cages.... I sleep better at night knowing that the choices I make & my votes are compassionate. You have to be able to live with yourself. If you truly believe the lies spouted by the "Alliance for Liars" then I feel sorry for you.
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Cody Hobbs...Sure you know Kara Crass...your both breeders. You probably know Peggy Ryan too! According to Washburn MO Dog Breeder Directory...Codey, you breed: Mini Dachshunds, Boston Terriers, Pomeranians, and Shih Tzus.
Hope you are doing it well! If you truly are a good breeder, IMO, you should already be doing what prop B calls for! I migh speculate that your opinion is tainted by money & not the welfare of the animals.
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When I google Kara Crass... there are some not very nice things people have to say about puppies they have purchased from her kennel. From your perspective she may very well be very nice. I don't know her personally, but from what I've read online...I'm not impressed. And I personally don't believe a word out of her mouth. I was on another forumn with her & a "Peggy Ryan".... Peggy Ryan spewed that she was caring & compassionate with her animals, too.... come to find out she's on the top 12 "Dirty Dozen" list of puppy mills. SHAME ON HER. Now if Kara wants to defend someone like that... I don't have to listen & won't.
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!
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STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY
VOTE YES ON PROP B!

(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 16, 2010 | 7:09 p.m.

Well good then get off of here Amy...if you want to spout your opinion fine but, if we are going to spout ours. If you do not want to listen then LEAVE!!

(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 16, 2010 | 7:12 p.m.

Correction to last comment: I mean we are going to spout ours!

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 16, 2010 | 9:32 p.m.

I found the article mentioned in earlier comments:

http://hslf.typepad.com/political_animal...

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 17, 2010 | 12:13 a.m.

I am going to post one last evening and then I'm gone, you people won't stick to the truth or the issue, so there's no point in trying to be rational. While I admit there are bad kennels and they should be shut down, you won't admit there are good kennels and a different point of view. You have all been brainwashed into believing whatever the humaniacs spew forth. I do feel sorry for you though, anyone that has so little compassion for people and their lives must be pretty miserable human beings. That's sad.

I have told all about myself and that's it in a nutshell folks. I don't believe in Prop B, it goes against all sensible people's freedoms and isn't fair. I have said it time and again, if you want to make an intelligent suggestion to shut down puppy mills, I'm all for it. But a blanket initiative that will not in any way retain it's goal, is a waste of taxpayers money and Missouri's time.

You just are not listening to what any of us are saying, WE DON'T SKIMP ON THE CARE OF OUR DOGS!! DEAD DOGS DON'T HAVE PUPPIES!! How do you not understand, that we have to take care of our dogs for them to have the healthy happy puppies that we need to make a living? It's as simple as that for a responsible breeder. You have such a limited capacity for thinking that you can't even see that simple truth. Now, I did not say EVERY breeder, I said RESPONSIBLE breeders, do you see the difference? I doubt it, because according to hsus, ANYONE that breeds dogs is a bad breeder. I just don't get what is wrong with someone making a living at something they love to do. As long as we take care of and love our dogs, isn't that all that matters? And don't condescend to me, I love my dogs more than someone like you could ever comprehend. And yes, I make money, this is what I do, this is my business and it is run as such!! I have never denied that or that I am a commercial dog breeder. It is a perfectly legal, respectable business and I work very hard at it. You are the ones trying to make it into a dirty word.
I tell anyone and everyone that calls to buy a puppy that I am a commercial breeder and they are more than welcome to come here and pick up their puppies. Why would I talk about brokers, I don't broker my puppies! If you want to talk about brokers, go ahead, although again, off point, since Prop B does not apply to them.
VOTE NO ON PROP B!!

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 17, 2010 | 12:30 a.m.

I have been on comment boards all over with you people and it's always the same. Insults, name calling and smear tactics. That's because you can't argue your point. You can't talk over the truth and you can't lie away the regulations that we already have. It's obvious to any rational person, what this proposition is all about and you can't change that. Actually, the personal attacks are very encouraging to me. It just shows that you are getting more and more desperate, as time gets closer, because you aren't sure your emotional sensationalism is working. Maybe, clear headed, rational thinking voters are not going to take up the hysterical call to arms you have tried to spew forth.

Even your vote yes at the end of your posts are desperate.
I also notice that NOT ONE OF MY QUESTIONS WAS ANSWERED? What's the problem, don't want anyone to know what you do for a living and all about your lives, what are you trying to hide? Looks a bit suspicious to me!
While I have been upfront and told you all about myself, you can't even tell what your 'legetimate' business is, wonder why?

I have more to do than go over the same old same old. Thank goodness, Missouri voters have the ability to find out the facts for themselves and to vote accordingly. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and yes or no will get the chance to exercise that right. That is the American way and win or loose, I stand behind that! Of course, win or loose, I will still be raising dogs so if you ever need a wonderful purebred puppy with great personality and healthy to boot, look me up!!
VOTE NO ON PROP B!!

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 17, 2010 | 1:04 a.m.

I would just like to leave all Missourians with some resources to find out info on Prop B:

To compare Prop B with current regulations, go to:
www.box.net/shared/7jj22ho66o9

To find out the truth behind the HSUS and it's plans for America, go to: www.humanewatch.org

To read the ballot language go to the Secretary of State's website

To read comments made by one of our representatives, go to:
http://www.mofb.org/LinkClick.aspx?filet...

To read the 23 pages of current regulations go to: www.mda.mo.gov

To read the Missouri Veterinary Medical Associations views on prop b, go to: www.mvma.us

To read the American Kennel Club's views on prop B, go to:
www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=42...

To read all animal legislation in the state, go to: www.mofed.org

To learn the true facts about prop b, go to: www.thealliancefortruth.com

To read about a program that DOES WORK and to report suspected puppymills, go to:
www.//mda.mo.gov/animals/ACFA/barkalert/...

There is plenty of information out there for the inquiring mind, please be informed before you vote.

VOTE NO ON PROP B!

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking October 17, 2010 | 5:36 a.m.

Marina Shane wrote:

"GOOD breeders shouldn't have any issue with Prop B."

GOOD breeders have issue with the 50 dog limit. This was specifically written into the bill to make it very difficult for a breeder to make a living breeding dogs. Breeding animals is a lot of work and people typically don't make a lot of money doing it. This will shut down most, if not all, of the good breeders and leave just the bad ones (ones that cut corners to make a buck).

This is a bad law, which will have a lot of unintended consequences, and its sponsors know that. As voters, we should tell them to come back with a bill that spells out explicitly what they want, and let voters (or the legislature) decide on that.

DK

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 17, 2010 | 8:12 a.m.

Kara Crass, you wave your hands a lot and say, don't look at me, look at this, or look at that, including what do we do, and how do we live.

I'm assuming if we sold products to the public, we'd also be answerable to whatever regulations exist covering those products. You're answerable to the public because this is what you've accepted as part of being a commercial dog breeder.

You say you have a clean inspection reports, but all of the USDA reports show some infraction or another. They aren't horrendous, but they're not good, either. More importantly, you don't let people know the facts about your operation on your web site. To me that's deceptive.

Why don't you let potential puppy owners know about your operation? How many dogs you breed, or provide details of their upbringing? Instead, you talk about each being socialized--but you say you spend three hours a day with a very large number of adult dogs, which also means you have a very large number of puppies.

Why don't you show potential customers what your place is like?

Mark Foeking, the supporters of Proposition B are fully aware of the consequences of this bill.

The puppy mills in Missouri have already seen the writing on the wall. October 30th, Bonnie and Henry Schindler are closing their kennel and selling all their dogs at auction http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-national.... Rescue operations are gearing up to go save them.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 17, 2010 | 9:28 a.m.

Oh, if you want to know what the current laws in Missouri allow for a dog breeder, read the Schindler's USDA report:

http://acissearch.aphis.usda.gov/LPASear...

Don't anyone dare tell us that the current laws are "adequate".

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 17, 2010 | 9:33 a.m.

Oh, and here's the vet statement attached to the Schindler's dog auction notice:

"“I have been professionally associated with Herman & Bonnie Schindler of Teacher’s Pets since May, 1990. I began
working on premise at their facility March of ‘95, and have continued to provide weekly veterinary care for their
animals to present. This is a professional breeding facility that has high standards, not only for the quality of their breeding stock and the care and well-being of their animals, but also for the living standards of the animals.

Herman & Bonnie are responsible breeders that continue to strive to provide adequate care and maintain reasonable health and wellness standards. All health issues are addressed in a timely and prompt manner.
Sincerely, Dr. Sue Sculley, DVM”

So much for living up to the veterinarian's oath. And so much for vets talking about "kennel care".

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 17, 2010 | 10:21 a.m.

Shelley, I wasn't going to comment again, because you can lead a mule to water... However, I wasn't going to let the comment about Bonnie and HERMAN Schindler go. I don't know the people personally, have never been to their place. But I do know that this woman has already almost died of breast cancer and is facing another round. What with that, their age and all this nonsense about Proposition B, they have decided they need to concentrate on her and not dogs and drama. That's the way it should be! Again, the fact that you can have no compassion for people is very very sad.

And of course the rescues are lining up, they are salivating. They can't wait to try and get in there and buy a $5 dog they can resell for $300. Money makes the world go round....I am already starting the process to become not for profit, I think they make more money than I do.

I just heard this morning on KTTS, one of YOUR supporters tell everyone listening, that this WOULD NOT AFFECT ILLEGAL UNLICENSED PUPPYMILLS. He reiterated TWICE, that it would not affect unlicensed puppymills. So that would blow your argument that it would affect all 3000 kennels in Missouri, back down to just the 1460 legally licensed kennels, right? Maybe some of you are seeing the light.

I know what I took on when I became a commercial kennel, been doing it for 22 years. I spend hours with my potential clients and send them all the info they want, so that they are comfortable with their purchase. All of my clients know what I do for a living and how I do it. That's the difference between you and me, I am completely honest and open with people and you can't even tell us what you do for a living. Now, TO ME, that is deceptive...

What I ACTUALLY said, was that I had never been written up by the STATE OF MISSOURI. My USDA inspector informed me when she first came, that she would always find something to write up, no matter how great the kennel. And so far, she's pretty much on course. I get wrote up for pretty minor stuff, I am actually very proud of my kennel and the job I do. (Notice there are no 5 inch pens at my place.) EXCEPT for Feb. 06, 2008, I did receive a completely clean inspection,from the USDA, on this day. So there, NAH!!!! Did that make you feel better?

Again, I am leaving here and going to try and reach rational people. I actually want to discuss Proposition B not argue back and forth with people who have no grasp of the situation and can do nothing but smear individuals, because they can't argue their point.
Have a nice day:0)

October is Breast Cancer Awareness month, Please support your local Breast Cancer Foundation!

VOTE NO ON PROP B!!

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 17, 2010 | 10:33 a.m.

Woops, my bad, I hadn't read the inspection reports for the Schindlers. They're not good. But I still say that is a downfall of the inspectors not the current regulations. The regulations are adequate, it's enforcement that we need to address. The state has the recourse to go in and seize dogs. Now, why they didn't in this instance, I have no idea. But do you really think, if Proposition B had been in place, it would have been any different. It would be the exact same inspectors not enforcing more laws, that's all. I have said time and again that there are bad kennels and they need to be shut down. This proposition just will not do that. And I do still wish this woman well in her battle with cancer. Having had it take both my parents, I know the battle they are facing.

If you really want to do some good, try to work with the responsible breeders to come up with a solution that will work for everyone, not just try to shut down breeders indiscrimenantly.

VOTE NO ON PROP B!!

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 17, 2010 | 10:57 a.m.

Kara Crass, how dare you.

How dare you imply that the rescue organizations are planning on swooping in to get a cheap dog to re-sell, when that is the only purpose of the puppy mill people. I happen to know of the rescue organizations involved in this rescue, and there's not a one that isn't interested in these dogs only to find them good homes. But you have to slam these people because otherwise people will look, hard, at the "commercial dog breeders" in Missouri and see what you are.

So this woman has been suffering from cancer for three years? Because she's been starving and mistreating her dogs for three years. She and her husband have an appalling puppy mill -- a thousand dogs, starved, abused, neglected shamefully.

And your comment about the USDA inspector always finding something? Should we contact her and ask for her verification of your statement? because I've seen the inspector give a clean report to other breeders. And if you're so proud of your kennels why on earth do you pretend to be anything but a commercial dog breeder at your web site?

Where's the photos of your kennels at your site? Statistics on number of dogs? Why do you hide what you are, at your site?

But yes, go find people who will agree with you.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 17, 2010 | 1:26 p.m.

How this affects illegal breeders:

The law doesn't apply to illegal breeders, because there are laws that prevent unlicensed breeding. HOWEVER, when the 50 dog cap is applied, and people see kennels with obviously more than 50 dogs, they'll know this is not a legal kennel and will report them. In addition, when they see a kennel that does not meet the requirements of Proposition B, and the law does result in obvious physical changes, again, people will be able to easily see that the kennel is not legal and turn them in.

So no, the law does not _directly_ impact on illegal kennels, because there are other laws in place for them. It does, though, indirectly impact.

More importantly, it provides the teeth to go after the legal breeders who commit violation after violation, year after year. Remember that the USDA has a policy of only pulling licenses of places after they've failed the same inspection point for three inspections in a row. This new law, which will be enforced by Missouri, allows inspectors to go after violations IMMEDIATELY.

(Report Comment)
Kara Crass October 17, 2010 | 1:27 p.m.

Hellloooo....Is anyone home? You know Shelley, Wal-Mart pharmacy is open on Sundays, just in case you have run out of your medication!

Oh Honey, I did not mean to 'imply' anything. I am saying it outright. Dog rescues are the biggest scam going on in America today. I also, have dealt with tons of these 'not-for-profit' groups and it was an eye opener to say the least. A group of us actually talked a couple of breeders into giving their dogs to rescue instead of euthanizing them. I contacted rescue after rescue and got a myriad of excuses. Everything from they were too full, to the dogs were the wrong sex, the wrong breed, too old and my all time personal favorite expression from a rescue..."These are not 'GRAVY' dogs." When I asked what she meant, she informed me that for her group of rescues, organizations that she was representing from Iowa to Georgia, could not possibly take Cockers, Beagles and Jack Russells unless we came up with some "GRAVY" breeds to go with them. Breeds like Bulldogs, Yorkies and Maltese, the popular breeds that they could ask bigger adoption fees for. Or puppies that they could move without thinking twice. "YUM YUM!!"

So now, not only are the rescues and shelters exempt from Proposition B, only certain 'popular' breeds deserve humane care, according to them.

They get free to almost free purebred dogs, they get the vet care donated, they have volunteers to groom them and they advertise them for free on PetFinder. They adopt them out for the modest $300-500 adoption fee, 'to cover costs'. Now you tell me how they are not making money? So go blow smoke up someone elses' chimney, we aren't buying gullable here today.

All you Pro-Prop B people have managed to do at this point, is to ensure that breeders will no longer willingly give their dogs to rescues to make profit off of.

And Bonnie has been fighting cancer for at least 5 years, maybe more. I'm not sure what cancer patients have done to you, but I think it's in poor taste to attack someone in a fight for their life.

What I said (again, not paying attention, try to keep up) is that there has to be intelligent conversation out there somewhere. I'm off to find it.

Chow!

VOTE NO ON PROP B!!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 1:57 p.m.

HEY.... RAY! You asked for it... here it is!
(I created a BLOG just to post this rebuttal online for you!:)
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A link for easier reading:
http://marinashanelewis.wordpress.com/i-...
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(AND FOR THOSE THAT DON"T LIKE TO CLICK ON LINKS AND LEAVE THE COLUMBIA MISSOURIAN... I'VE COPIED & PASTED IT FOR YOU ALL BELOW!:)
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Read the FULL TEXT HERE: http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/2010peti...

A rubuttal to arguements from the opposition posed to me:
• The word “puppy mill” is defined as a substandard commercial dog breeding facility. On 08-13-10, a Cole County circuit court judge upheld the initiative’s ballot title (“Puppy Mill Cruelty Prevention Act”) and ruled that the language drafted by Secretary Carnahan for the petition summary was “neither insufficient nor unfair.”

• Proposition B addresses the issues concerning Missouri’s animal welfare laws within the Commercial breeding industry. Those people breeding dogs for sale without licenses are breaking the law also. They can be shut down for operating a business without a license. Hoarders fall under animal neglect/animal cruelty laws. The intent of Proposition B is to improve the quality of life for dogs in commercial breeding facilities.

• Propostition B creates a misdemeanor crime of “puppy mill cruelty” for any violations. As defined in the text of the law:
A person is guilty of the crime of puppy mill cruelty when he or she KNOWINGLY violates any provision of this section. The crime of puppy mill cruelty is a class C misdemeanor, unless the defendant has previously pled guilty to or been found guilty of a violation of this section, in which case each such violation is a class A misdemeanor. Each violation of this section shall constitute a separate offense. If any violation of this section meets the definition of animal abuse in section 578.012, the defendant may be charged and penalized under that section instead.

(The opposition’s arguement that “A drop of kibble in the water bowl a cobweb in the corner of a building, a scratch on a painted surface, etc” will cause someone to be arrested for Puppy Mill Cruelty is ridiculous! Proposition B states that the animal’s enclosure is “cleaned of waste at least once a day while the dog is outside the enclosure” and ” Sufficient food and clean water” is defined as “access to appropriate nutritious food at least once a day sufficient to maintain good health; and continuous access to potable water that is not frozen, and is free of debris, feces, algae, and other contaminants.” )

This is long so it may take a few entries!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 1:58 p.m.

Rebuttal PART 2:

• Regarding stacked cages: Prop B reads "Sufficient housing, including protection from the elements" means constant and unfettered access to an indoor enclosure that has a solid floor; is not stacked or otherwise placed on top of or below another animal's enclosure; is cleaned of waste at least once a day while the dog is outside the enclosure; and does not fall below 45 degrees Fahrenheit, or rise above 85 degrees Fahrenheit."
For Dogs in Commercial Breeding Facilities, the cages are their perment home. In Shelters, the cages are temporary homes for the dogs. There is a HUGE difference between keeping a dog in a stacked cage for a few days to weeks versus 10-15 years!
The Opposition's arguement that "Show breeders with more than ten intact female dogs could not crate their dogs for any purpose while preparing for shows, grooming or keeping intact females separate from males. " is FALSE.
The truth: Prop B reads: This section shall not apply to a dog during examination, testing, operation, recuperation, or other individual treatment for veterinary purposes; during lawful scientific research; during transportation; during cleaning of a dog's enclosure; during supervised outdoor exercise; or during any emergency that places a dog's life in imminent danger. This section shall not apply to any retail pet store; animal shelter as defined in section 273.325; hobby or show breeders who have custody of no more than ten female covered dogs for the purpose of breeding those dogs and selling any offspring for use as a pet; or dog trainer who does not breed and sell any dogs for use as a pet. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit hunting or the ability to breed, raise, or sell hunting dogs.

This is long so it may take a few entries!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 1:59 p.m.

Rebuttal PART 3:
•Proposition B Reads: " Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no person may have custody of more than fifty covered dogs for the purpose of breeding those animals and selling any offspring for use as a pet.
The Opposition's Arguement that "Under Prop B Legal, licensed breeders could have NO MORE than 50 dogs, regardless of the excellent care they receive while anyone not breeding dogs could have unlimited numbers of dogs living in filthy conditions." is FALSE. They're are hoarding & animal neglect laws in place that apply to these conditions for people without licenses for breeding.
The Opposition's Arguement that "Prop B creates the first step in HSUS and other animal rights groups dictating the number of animals one may own. " This is an outright LIE and SCARE TACTIC by the opposition! The only way to limit the number of animals a person owns is to legislate the number. There are already different ordinances from county to county stating how many domestic pets an individual can keep in a home. These numbers vary from county to county & city to city.
•Proposition B reads: "Necessary veterinary care" means, at minimum, examination at least once yearly by a licensed veterinarian; prompt treatment of any illness or injury by a licensed veterinarian; and, where needed, humane euthanasia by a licensed veterinarian using lawful techniques deemed "Acceptable" by the American Veterinary Medical Association."
The oppositions arguement "Prompt treatment for ANY illness or injury would be required by a licensed veterinarian, including something as simple as an upset stomach, torn toenail, cut on the nose, or any minor issue often treated by the breeder. Costs for veterinary care for minor issues would skyrocket, resulting in fewer purebred dogs available for public demand. "
This is a misrepresentation of the legislation & blows it out of proportion. For one: Dogs can't talk to tell you they have an "Upset stomach" but if the dog is throwing up … don't you think the dog needs to see the vet? If a torn toenail causes that dog to limp…the dog should see a vet! If a cut on the nosewon't heal …yes that dog should see a vet! Right now, a vet is only required to show up once a year to a breeding facility. That doesn't mean that the vet sees every dog for an exam. With Prop B, each dog will be required to have an actual exam at least once per year.
:

This is long so it may take a few entries!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 2:00 p.m.

Rebuttal PART 4
• Prop B reads: ""Regular exercise" means constant and unfettered access to an outdoor exercise area that is composed of a solid, ground level surface with adequate drainage; provides some protection against sun, wind, rain, and snow; and provides each dog at least twice the square footage of the indoor floor space provided to that dog."
The Opposition's arguement that: "Prop B requires constant and unfettered access to an outside exercise area which will be deadly to newborn and non-weaned puppies that may crawl outside to follow their mothers and cannot find their way back inside. Babies will die of heat exhaustion and dehydration in the summer and hypothermia in the winter. Drafts of air created by required indoor/outdoor runs for mothers will ensure upper respiratory stress and pneumonia for babies, resulting in the deaths of many newborn puppies. " Is FALSE, REDICULOUS, & YET ANOTHER SCARE TACTIC! Prop B ALSO states that "This section shall not apply to a dog during examination, testing, operation, recuperation, or other individual treatment for veterinary purposes". Bearing & weaning puppies qualifies as RECUPURATION. During the weaning process, neither the breeding dog not the puppies would have to bear to the unfettered access condition.
•Prop B states: "Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit hunting or the ability to breed, raise, or sell hunting dogs."
The oppositions arguement that: "Breeders of hunting dogs are exempt from licensing unless even one of their dogs or puppies is sold as a pet or lives inside the home of the purchaser." IS A LIE & SCARE TACTIC.
• The oppositions arguement: "There is no scientific basis for eliminating tenderfoot flooring which allows for easy cleaning and sterilizing of enclosures. " WOW! DO YOU REALLY NEED AS SCIENTIFIC STUDY TO KNOW THAT WIRE BOTTOM CAGES CAUSE SPLAYED PAWS & THE INABILITY TO WALK ON SOLID GROUND? You Tube some videos of dogs in puppy mills & see it for yourself.
:

This is long so it may take a few entries!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 2:02 p.m.

Rebuttal PART 5:
• Prop B States: "Necessary veterinary care" means, at minimum, examination at least once yearly by a licensed veterinarian; prompt treatment of any illness or injury by a licensed veterinarian; and, where needed, humane euthanasia by a licensed veterinarian using lawful techniques deemed "Acceptable" by the American Veterinary Medical Association." & also "Adequate rest between breeding cycles: means, at minimum, ensuring that dogs are not bred to produce more than two litters in any 18 month period."
The Opposition's Arguement : "Proposition B interferes with the working relationship between a breeder and his or her veterinarian on the health of their dogs and the frequency of breeding. The Department of Agriculture would be charged with determining the breeding frequency of dogs in licensed facilities." MORE SCARE TACTICS FROM THE OPPOSITION. Prop B simply says the dogs need to be seen by a vet at least once a year for an exam & that they cannot be bred more than 2 times in 18 months. The "Relationship" between a breeder & a vet is only as good as the breeder wants it to be with or withour prop B!
• The Opposition's Arguement: "HSUS has introduced Prop B as a means of eliminating the legal, licensed professional dog breeders in Missouri. According to the Department of Agriculture, no current licensed breeder can comply with the regulations put forth in Prop B, no matter how clean and well run the facility. Cost prohibitive space requirements coupled with misdemeanor crimes for the most minor of issues will eliminate the legal industry in our state. " MORE SCARE TACTICS FROM THE OPPOSITION. First off, it's not just HSUS, but also, HSMO, MAAL & ASPCA invloved with this legislation. I've also never seen where the Dept of Agriculture has said "no current licensed breeder can comply with the regulations put forth in Prop B" These are reasonable measures that GOOD breeders already comply with!
• The Opposition's arguement "Only unlicensed, substandard breeders will be left to produce puppies while continuing to hide from state laws. " STILL MORE SCARE TACTICS FROM THE OPPOSITION.
Unlicensed breeders can be shut down for doing business without a license!
:
This is long so it may take a few entries!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 2:04 p.m.

Rebuttal PART 6:
PROPOSITION B READS: "The provisions of this section are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any other state and federal laws protecting animal welfare. This section shall not be construed to limit any state law or regulation protecting the welfare of animals, nor shall anything in this section prevent a local governing body from adopting and enforcing its own animal welfare laws and regulations in addition to this section."
MISSOURI IS THE SHOW ME STATE,
IT'S TIME TO SHOW COMPASSION!
VOTE YES! ON PROP B!
More info about Missouri Puppy Mills & Animal welfare Law in Missouri can be found at: http://www.maal.org/Puppy-Mills.asp
Join the Campaign at: www.yesonpropb.com
See what a puppy mill looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60LiJE-Cm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhbp7Jz0l...
According to the Department of Agriculture, A Blue Ribbon Kennel has exceeded industry standardswhen it comes to the care & welfare of animals. They are held to a higher standard than any other kennel in Missouri.
See what a Blue Ribbon Kennel looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdI2U6dgA...
A picture says a thousands words.
This is why Missouri needs better commercial dog breeding laws.
Our weak laws are the reason that Missouri is the puppy mill capitol of the United States.
Please join me in voting YES on Prop B!
November 2, 2010
YOU CAN HELP STOP THE CRUELTY!
VOTE YES on PROP B!

Whew!...My fingers are tired now!

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 2:06 p.m.

And JUST ONE MORE THING.....
YOU CAN HELP STOP THE CRUELTY!
VOTE YES on PROP B!
.
Please join me in voting YES on Prop B!
.
November 2, 2010
YOU CAN HELP STOP THE CRUELTY!
VOTE YES on PROP B!
.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 17, 2010 | 2:43 p.m.

Kara Crass, you're a person who pretends that you're a small cozy breeder at your web site, and you're expecting any of us to believe anything you say?

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 17, 2010 | 3:29 p.m.

VOTE YES! PROP B: Stop Puppy Mill Cruelty!
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QUOTE: "October 17, 2010 | 12:13 a.m. from Kara Crass
I am going to post one last evening and then I'm gone,"
.
Good Riddence. Glad to hear your done with your lies & falsehoods. And if you did come back & are reading this.... the reason I won't answer you 37 question request for my personal info, is that having seen you & your "friends" in Springfield last month & the threats against the Prop B supporters there... well...I really don't want to come home to a poisened dog, or bricks thru my windows at my business!
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B
Vote YES! PROP B

(Report Comment)
jake carter October 17, 2010 | 9:17 p.m.

So we still have yet to hear an answer as to why HSUS, shelters, rescues and catteries are exempt?
Also, where is the kennel that HSUS built. I want the tour. I also want the production records and vet records.
Shouldn't we put a limit on the number of dogs that a "no kill" shelter can have in their facility? Who watches this.
You folks need to go to facebook and check out Wayside Waifs. Go down their wall and read the comment made by a gal named Michelle regarding the condition of Halfway Home no kill shelter in K.C. Not good folks.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 17, 2010 | 11:17 p.m.

oh for the love of...

what do you all do, change your names and repeat the same comments, somehow hoping that they may actually morph into something logical and coherent?

jake carter, shelters are exempt because many times they have more than 50 dogs, primarily because commercial dog breeders dump their refuse on them, or ill-treated dogs are removed from hoarders or illegal breeders.

Would love to have less than 50 dogs in shelters. Good place to start is passing Proposition B.

Don't know Halfway Home no kill shelter. Is this the same as Halfway Home Pet Adoption http://halfwayhomepets.com/about-us/? The one that has to take in between 600 and 700 dogs a month? The municipal shelter that _can't_ turn any dog away?

Dogs people don't want, like commercial breeders who can't get their money's worth out of a dog? An overused breeding female maybe? Pups too old for the high bucks? Dogs seized from abusers, or lost on the street, hungry and scared? Dogs from hoarders and illegal breeders?

Was this the shelter you meant?

Yes, most shelters desperately need volunteers. There are too many dogs..way too many dogs. Are you volunteering? I'm sure you'd be welcome.

Now, is there any reason at all--any remote possibility that if we searched diligently--we can actually find something that logically connects your mention of this shelter to Proposition B?

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 18, 2010 | 9:31 a.m.

The answer as to why HSUS, shelters, rescues and catteries are exempt? SHELTERS & RESCUES are exempt because they are TEMPORARY homes for animals. Commercial Dog Breedeing facilities are PERMANENT HOMES for these dogs. THERE's a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a few weeks to A LIFETIME SPENT IN A PUPPY MILL!
Regarding catteries.... prop B is only in regards to DOGS! IT DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY OTHER ANIMALS! That means it does not regulate cows, horses, chickens, pigs, hamsters, mice, rabbits, or CATS! IF you'd like more regulation on catteries, then perhaps you need to start your own voter initiative because LORD KNOWS that most of our senators & representaives won't carry out the will of the people unless you have a lot of MONEY to throw at them!
.
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I would highly reccommend taking any comments from Jake Carter with a grain of salt (No....make that a SILO OF SALT!)Talk about being in the pocket of the puppy millers!
No wonder Mr Carter is against Prop B.
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Quote from Jake Carter: "I am a kennel vet. I service nearly 100 kennels in Missouri..."
.
Well, doesn't that explain his motivations! MONEY. How much MONEY he can make off the breeders. It's not really about the welfare of the dog is it? It's about the MONEY! If the Puppy mill(s) he services go out of business, he'll make less MONEY.
So in his eyes a dog doesn't deserve to see a vet once a year, even though it had babies. Following that logic... then watch out pregnant women around these people. If it was up to them you wouln't get prenatal/afterbirth care!
.
STOP THE CRUELTY!
VOTE YES! on PROP B!
.
STOP THE CRUELTY!
VOTE YES! on PROP B!
.
STOP THE CRUELTY!
VOTE YES! on PROP B!
.
STOP THE CRUELTY!
VOTE YES! on PROP B!

(Report Comment)
QuaShawn Jenkins October 18, 2010 | 11:11 a.m.

Ray Shapiro October 15, 2010 | 8:30 p.m.
You make such a good fire hydrant, Shelley.

This is inappropriate and not within the boundaries of civil decorum. Someone needs to report this man for hate-filled speech.

(Report Comment)
QuaShawn Jenkins October 18, 2010 | 11:14 a.m.

Puppy mills are concentration camps for puppies. There is a reason that Missouri has more puppy mills than any other state. The laws aren't good enough. This proposition enjoys 89 percent approval.

(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 18, 2010 | 9:46 p.m.

Marina so you are saying that shelter dogs do not deserve basic humane care even if it is only temporary? And also do not tell me those dogs are there even if they are only temporary and don't tell me I keep my dogs locked up for a lifetime!!! Again until you come out and work one day in our facilities you have not a clue what we do!!! So stop acting as if you do!!! The point I am trying to make is do not judge all of us breeders just because there are some bad ones!!! Every breeder I know will admit that!!! Proposition B is not the answer to the problem!!! VOTE NO ON PROP B

(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 18, 2010 | 9:52 p.m.

As to the rest of your comment it is utterly ridiculous!!! You all cannot argue the real issue because as soon as you start we shoot you down!!! You have NO ARGUEMENT!!! You are comparing DOGS to HUMANS !!! THAT IS CRAZY!!!! I have said it before and will continue to say it; there are children living in a lot worse conditions! Yet nothing is happening to help them!!! DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT!!! VOTE NO ON PROP B

(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 18, 2010 | 9:54 p.m.

Mrs. Jenkins where are you getting your information from on this so called 89% approval rate?

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 18, 2010 | 10:33 p.m.

Mr. Hobbs..you sure do like to twist people words around don't you?
.
The shelter/rescue dogs are NOT at issue here. What is at issue is dogs that live their whole lives in commercial breeding facilities.
I never said that YOU PERSONALLY keep YOUR dogs locked up for a lifetime! I Hope to H*ll you don't. If you do..then SHAME ON YOU!
I don't have an issue with GOOD breeders. There are many GOOD breeders ( in the 10-50 dog range, also) that SUPPORT prop b. I have issues with those breeders that put GREED before compassion. That care more about how much money they can make than the living conditions of their breeding dogs.

Prop B will ADD TO & CLARIFY existing law. Making it easier to shut the BAD BREEDERS DOWN. If you really are an ethical breeder you should come out & endorse PROP B.

The rest of your comments made no sense. Sir, I have stayed on issue. It is you and your coherts that keep using false debate tactics & illogical trains of thought.
I have been completely on issue. Your only defenses have been SCARE TACTICS & MISLEADING EXAGGERATIONS. Come up with some REAL arguements. I never compared dogs to humans, sir. You did! And I don't know of many children locked in tiny cages for their lives, with no opportunity to bath, and nasty food & water...except for that creep last year that imprisoned & molested his daughter for 17 years.
I'll have you know that I also advocate for childrens causes. Why is it wrong to point out evil where it occurs? Both children & animal issues can be addressed simutaneously in this world. We have 6 billion people in this world. On top of running my own business....I donate roughly 20+ hours a week of my time to multiple charities. In the last year, I've advocated for not only animal welfare issues, but also for Cancer, Veteran, & senior issues. I donate blood consistently (When my iron level is high enough that is:) & I donate my hair consisitently to Locks of Love every 2 years (It takes that long to grow out enough of it). I entertain a few times a year for seniors in retirement centers. I've been instrumental in raising thousands of dollars in my community for multiple non profits. I am a STAUNCH advocate of community. I refuse to stand by and watch & do nothing when I see injustice. And it is INJUSTICE I SEE IN MISSOURI's PUPPY MILLS.
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November 2nd, 2010
VOTE YES! ON PROP B
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY!
.
November 2nd, 2010
VOTE YES! ON PROP B
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY!
.
November 2nd, 2010
VOTE YES! ON PROP B
STOP PUPPY MILL CRUELTY!

(Report Comment)
Cody Hobbs October 18, 2010 | 10:46 p.m.

What have I said that was off the issue? And what exactly have you said that has been about the issue?

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 18, 2010 | 11:06 p.m.

Cody Hobbs asks:
"Mrs. Jenkins where are you getting your information from on this so called 89% approval rate?"

Well, obviously not from here:

Missouri Proposition B: The Puppy Mill Bill

No 836 54%
Yes 671 43%
Other (explain below) 27 1%
Current Total 1,534
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/alton-mo...

(Report Comment)
Gloria Young October 20, 2010 | 6:44 p.m.

Kara Crass
Maybe spewing your hate and misinformation makes you feel good, but it accomplishes nothing. Clearly, you have no intention of engaging in civil discourse, or convincing anyone of anything. You know you’re wrong, so you’re getting nasty. You can claim whatever you like, but google can be useful tool to find out where a person’s been, what they’ve done in the commercial sector. People in New Jersey know your name and know not to buy from you. What happened to your previous kennels, that have simply disappeared but nothing but a trail of dead puppies left over.

Cody Hobbs
You’re not even presenting a real argument. Animal shelters exist for the sole purpose of providing animals humane care, you, want to make money. You want us to “trust” your word on the standards of your kennels, prove it. How about some inspection reports, photos. Otherwise you’re just some guy, who owns a kennel, saying yours is good but we’ve nothing to base that on. Her argument is “ridiculous.” Now, not all of us have had the benefit of classical debate training, but I think we can all agree that “nu-uh, you’re wrong” is not a valid argument. You’ve presented nothing in the way of valid or specific arguments, and capitalized letters and extra exclamation points, also do not an argument make.

Ray Shapiro
The 89% is based upon a survey conducted prior to misinformation being desiminated by people like you. The numbers you presented, are from a single survey, conducted on the internet, the epitome of validity. Now, I’ll forgive you for being ignorant of things technical, but internet polls are notoriously easy to skew.

Jake Carter
Wayside Waifs is currently seeing what they are able to assist Halfway Home animal shelter. There IS a limit to most shelters, but for shelters that are required to accept animals, there is no choice. Municipal facilities are required to accept the animals that are brought in by the people that live there. They HAVE to accept the animals. People running breeding facilities chose to have the number that they have.

(Report Comment)
Terry Ward October 24, 2010 | 7:00 a.m.

JeezeMarie..I FINALLY GET IT !!!!

How many gazillion times have these anti Prop B folks told us that the HSUS wants to 'eliminate livestock farming'?

And that Prop B's goal is ' ending animal agriculture'?

Prop B isn't about 'kennel standards'..
It's about no more PUPPIES to eat.

(Report Comment)

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