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ROSE NOLEN: Respecting animals, nature important to previous Missouri farmers

Tuesday, October 26, 2010 | 12:01 a.m. CDT; updated 8:59 p.m. CDT, Tuesday, October 26, 2010

With the next election a little more than a week away, I can honestly say there is nothing I've heard so far from any of the candidates  that encourages me to go to the polls. As far as I'm concerned, it's the same old, same old.

There is one issue that has caught my attention, and that is Proposition B, which would  increase dog breeding regulations. I want to explain why I feel the way I do about this issue.

I am a native Missourian. I grew up in a small town surrounded by agricultural producers. When I was growing up, these people were farmers. Mostly these were men who wore bib-overalls and women who wore housedresses. Many of these farmers had only one or two Sunday outfits that they wore to church for worship, weddings and funerals. A major part of the value system I grew up with was based on agriculture values. We lived in concert with nature. Animals were only slaughtered for food for humans to eat. Had we all been vegetarians, there would have been no need to slaughter animals at all. Animals of all kinds lived under safe, humane conditions. Most family pets lived as well as their owners.

Some of today's agricultural producers wear three-piece suits, ride around in jets, and many, I suspect, have never looked a heifer or a sow in the eye. But whether individual or corporate producers, I can understand why they see Proposition B as a threat to their future bottom lines. Where I live, I witness truckloads of chickens packed into cages like dead sardines. People are sickened by such sights. But the inhumane treatment of chickens is legal so chicken breeders can let their consciences be their guides. In this case, we are talking about the housing of dogs in puppy mills and whether or not they should be housed under safe, sanitary conditions.

I, and individual producers that I know, favor keeping all animals under safe, clean conditions. I really don't want to go near producers who argue that this is the beginning of an attempt to put farmers out of business. They make me curious as to what kind of operations they are engaged in if keeping dogs in humane conditions causes them a problem. As things stand, do we all have to become vegetarians in order to stop the abuse of farm animals? In short, can we even trust the vegetables these people are producing? Are these so-called farmers protesting too much?

Personally, I don't trust people who abuse anything in nature. That comes from the agricultural value system that I learned as a child.

As much as some would like to believe the opposite, Missouri is not an "anything goes" state. We are the Show-Me state, where we say what we mean and mean what we say. In earlier days, we were proud to say that we fed the nation. And the farmers that lived around my family fed us, and they didn't have to abuse animals in order to do so. In days of feast or famine, our farmers didn't whine either. They just got up and went to work from sunup to sundown.

If farmers are not concerned about the well-being of the animals they raise, that tells me what kind of people they are, and I have no interest in changing them. In other words, I don't covet their souls. As long as they obey state and local laws, they are free to care for their animals any way they choose.

But I am grateful to have the opportunity to cast my vote in favor of the humane treatment of dogs. Americans today don't waste a chance to celebrate their freedoms. If people who call themselves farmers want to use their freedoms to treat their animals without regard to their safety and well being, there is nothing I can do about it. I don't have time to go around the state trying to teach people how to be human. If you don't learn that as a child, you probably never will.

People who want to breed dogs in dirty, unsafe puppy mills can go into another business. Maybe they can find work with some of these protesting farmers who seem to favor lower standards.

I'm glad I had the experience of growing up among farmers I could respect. The agricultural value system that taught me to appreciate nature has added great dimensions to my life. When I go into the polls and cast my ballot in favor of Proposition B+, I will be paying tribute to a well-learned lesson.

You can join the conversation with Rose M. Nolen by calling her at 882-5734 or e-mailing her at nolen@iland.net.


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Comments

Anne Hogan October 26, 2010 | 8:56 a.m.

Thank you for a wonderful perspective, Ms. Nolen. At puppy mills in Missouri, dogs are crammed into small and filthy cages, denied veterinary care, exposed to extremes of heat and cold, and given no exercise or human affection. These puppy mills are cruel and the way these dogs are treated is wrong. Prop B will stop puppy mill abuses by establishing common sense standards for the proper care of dogs.

The Humane Society of Missouri and many Missouri veterinarians urge a “YES” vote on Prop B.

To learn more about the conditions in Missouri puppy mills, you can view the HSUS's "Dirty Dozen" report at http://www.humanesociety.org/news/news/2....

To learn more about Prop B, please visit http://yesonpropb.com/

(Report Comment)
Robin Nuttall October 26, 2010 | 10:04 a.m.

@Anne, when you say "many Missouri veterinarians" you are being disingenuous I believe. Hopefully not deliberately so.

The Missouri Veterinary Medical Association opposes Proposition B. In speaking to one of the veterinarians from the MVMA, he felt that a lot of veterinarians signed the petition without really understanding what it was or what it meant.

It should also be noted that the Columbia MO Kennel Club and the Show Me Canines Club, both located in Columbia, also oppose Proposition B. I think it is quite safe to say that all of these organizations despise people who treat dogs, or any animals, cruelly. However, Proposition B is not the answer to our problems in Missouri.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 10:58 a.m.

("Where I live I witness truckloads of chickens packed into cages like dead sardines. People are sickened by such sights. But the inhumane treatment of chickens is legal so chicken breeders can let their consciences be their guides.")

Your argument is biased and subjective.
First off, dead sardines don't cluck.

Secondly, inhumane treatment of chickens or for that matter even dogs, is our projection that the dog or chicken also knows what inhumane treatment is. Personally, I thought we could only be inhumane to other humans and that being abusive to nature would be a bit more accurate. Although even being abusive of nature is an extension of our view of perhaps a judgement on others who seem to not be as appreciative of nature or "respect" nature as much as we expect them to.

(In fact, I would think that any empowered woman, such as yourself Rose, should have immediately started a campaign to limit Mike Tyson to no more than 50 chickens, each with its own condo. And now you must suffer from that guilt of "not saving the chickens" by looking to hurt the legal, hardworking Missourians who make their livelihood by providing a legitimate service in the dog industry.)

I for one will be proud to vote No on Proposition B and advocate that the current 20+ pages of laws, rules and regs already on the books be enforced.

I hope all Missourians who can think objectively and not misdirect their emotional projections of chickens crammed in cages or dogs in cages as a reason to destroy an economically viable industry of responsible business people.

(And lefty, progressives seem to be anti-large business, no matter how well they are run.)

Enforce the current laws. Stop the advancement of HSUS, the spawn of PETA.
Vote No on Proposition B.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 26, 2010 | 11:01 a.m.

I appreciate your writing, Ms. Nolen.

I spent the first 8 years of my life on a farm in Washington State. Like you, I don't remember any animal being treated by any farmer like the animals today are treated.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 11:21 a.m.

("All of St louis is talking and so should you.
Listen and learn the truth about the moral compass of HSUS.")
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010...
("Listen to Barbara Schmitz of HSUS as she attempts to discredit a licensed veterinarian during a debate. Are these the kind of morals that we want our children to learn?")
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010...

Here's the link for the Barbara Schmitz expose'....
http://kmox.cbslocal.com/shows/mark-rear...

(Report Comment)
Sarah Barnett October 26, 2010 | 11:46 a.m.

Robin, Prop B would increase enforcement and stop the cruelty in puppy mills all across Missouri. It has been endorsed by responsible breeders, vets, citizens and organizations alike.

The problem in Missouri is that current regulations concerning puppy mills are complicated, vague, and confusing. As a result, it is difficult for law enforcement officers to identify and prosecute violations. The issue is not just a lack of enforcement, but the lack of good, clear legal standards that facilitate enforcement. That is why Prop B is needed.

Prop B will increase enforcement in general, and specifically increase and facilitate local law enforcement as compared to the existing vague and highly technical puppy mill regulations.

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 26, 2010 | 11:48 a.m.

Prop B only covers dogs bred to produce puppies sold commercially as pets- no other species of animal. It could not be more clear that this measure has no impact on agriculture. Fifteen states recently passed strong laws cracking down on puppy mills, including major agricultural states, giving dogs the basics of humane care.

Many MO animal welfare organizations and more than 150 MO veterinarians and clinics support Prop B. You can see them here-
http://yesonpropb.com/about/endorsements...

(Report Comment)
Sarah Barnett October 26, 2010 | 12:21 p.m.

Ray demonstrates exactly what is expected of opposition - they cannot defend puppy mills, so instead they try to make the issue about everything else under the sun. I encourage Missouri voters to read the act itself, and make their own informed decision. You can see it here: http://yesonpropb.com/about/read-act

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 12:39 p.m.

Sarah Barnett says:
("Ray demonstrates exactly what is expected of opposition - they cannot defend puppy mills...")
I responded to Rose Nolen's article.
You define what you mean by that ambiguous term and then you'll get my response.

(Report Comment)
John Schultz October 26, 2010 | 3:13 p.m.

Sarah, is it your contention that all dog breeders operate "puppy mills?"

(Report Comment)
Marina Shane October 26, 2010 | 3:24 p.m.

Hey How about we all call a truce for 20 minutes & go post a tribute to a fallen Columbia soldier?
Sgt. 1st Class Charles M. Sadell Passes away today from injuries sustained in Arif Kala, Afghanistan on Oct 5th.

here's the column link:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/storie...

(Report Comment)
Sarah Barnett October 26, 2010 | 4:59 p.m.

@John, no, I believe there is a different between puppy mills and responsible breeders. While I personally wouldn't buy a dog, I understand that some people for various reasons want to purchase a dog rather than adopt, and I want them to go to a responsible breeder, rather than a puppy mill.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 5:17 p.m.

Sarah:
Then what makes a breeder irresponsible if they can treat more than 50 dogs "decently?"
(Which that term in itself is subject to opinion.)
Nevertheless, why shouldn't responsible breeders/business people be barred from maximizing their resources, merging and combining their acerage under a partnership and own more than 50 dogs?
This proposition has the word "puppy mill" in it.
It does not clearly state what a "puppy mill" is, but definitely implies that any breeder with more than 50 dogs is irresponsible.
Just doesn't seem right or make sense.
In the economic, business and humane world I know to be true, anyway.
Perhaps the Progs have it wrong.
Perhaps they're just looking to hurt "big business" and blame successful larger breeders for all the woes in dogville.
Voting No on Proposition B is the only way to send a message to these misguided legislative wannabees.
Enforce the current 20+ pages of rules. regs , policies and regs already on the books and maybe come up with a better proposition in the future.
This proposition B is full of pitfalls.
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/storie...

(Report Comment)
Sarah Barnett October 26, 2010 | 6:00 p.m.

Ray, you bring up an important point - being subjective. Enforcement of stopping puppy mills (a court already ruled on whether this term was appropropriate, and it wasn't in your favor) should be clear cut so that it is possible and likely.
Prop B provides clear, common-sense standards for the proper care of dogs, including basic food, water, housing, and veterinary care in addition to existing law. It will increase enforcement, and stop the cruelty going on in puppy mills in Missouri on a daily basis.

Vote Yes on Prop B

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 6:36 p.m.

("It will increase enforcement, and stop the cruelty going on in puppy mills in Missouri on a daily basis.")

And you can guarantee this?
Exactly how can you guarantee this?
With regards to subjective enforcement, any effective enforcement has always been subjective to many variables.
(Will HSUS be funding government enforcement agencies?)

Proposition B doesn't guarantee anything, except outlawing larger, legal operations which currently don't deserve to be called "puppy mills" and impact the dog service industry in a negative way. (IT DOESN'T EVEN GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO MERGE OR CONSOLIDATE THEIR RESOURCES WITH OTHER BREEDERS.)
That by itself makes it an anti-business proposition.
It will also put a bigger strain on the nonprofits resulting in the deaths of countless healthy animals.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Vote No on Proposition B.

(Report Comment)
Sarah Barnett October 26, 2010 | 8:30 p.m.

The idea that this will result in some massive death toll, is as ludicrous as the suggestion that packs of poodles will suddenly roam the streets.

The vast majority of breeding facilities in Missouri are already below or close to this limit, and will not be affected by the new law. The Missouri Department of Agriculture estimates that 36% of licensed breeders have more than 50 breeding dogs, while independent review of the inventory figures provided by licensed breeders found that only 18% had more than 50 adult dogs. So somewhere between two-thirds and four-fifths of all licensed breeders in the state already have fewer than 50 breeding dogs and will not need to make any changes in the number of dogs they have.

In addition, there is a network of animal shelters and rescue groups prepared to remove and re-home dogs from the small number of large-scale puppy mills that have more than 50 breeding dogs, should mill owners request assistance with placement. Since puppy mills have one year to comply with the new law before it takes effect, transports and adoptions can be managed over a long period of time; animal shelters or rescue groups won’t be flooded simultaneously.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 9:07 p.m.

("Sarah Barnett October 26, 2010 | 8:30 p.m.
The idea that this will result in some massive death toll, is as ludicrous as the suggestion that packs of poodles will suddenly roam the streets.")

And you have the power to control how people in the industry will react if this insidious proposition gets passed?
Amazing.

(Report Comment)
Sarah Barnett October 26, 2010 | 9:55 p.m.

Ray, I don't have the power to control how the industry reacts, for all I know, the sky could suddenly fall in large chunks all across the state of Missouri.

However, I can be realistic, and say that while there is always the exception, 15 other states have passed similar legislation, and as far as I know there have been no packs of wild poodles running loose in those states.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 10:13 p.m.

("However, I can be realistic, and say that while there is always the exception, 15 other states have passed similar legislation, and as far as I know there have been no packs of wild poodles running loose in those states.")

How about in France?

(Report Comment)
Susan Willard October 26, 2010 | 10:33 p.m.

Thanks Ms. Nolan for sharing your thoughts on Proposition B. I applaud your analysis and your common sense.
Ms. Nolan you are going to be inundated with posts from Humanewatch/Center for Consumer Freedom (an industry front group) spewing their lies and breeders telling you how much they love their dogs, even though they are selling them over the internet to and into God knows what. I have faith that the decency of the good people of Missouri will overcome the self-interest of the industry that treats living creatures as commodities.
Thanks again Ms. Nolan for using you voice for those animals who have none.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 26, 2010 | 10:50 p.m.

Susan:
Are you against capitalism?
Are these not commodities?
http://terselubung.blogspot.com/2009/11/...
What's wrong with horse trading? Dog trading?
Must we treat all animals equally?
Who are you to judge and invoke Propositions?
Vote No on Proposition B.
It's the most humane and righteous thing to do for Missouri, its dog service workers and for the dogs who need enforcement of the current 20+ pages of laws, policies and regulations already on the books.

(Report Comment)
michelle johnson October 26, 2010 | 11:39 p.m.

HSUS contends that they have the proper moral compass?
Wayne Pacelle debated the same veterinarian that Barbara Schmitz attempted to discredit with a lie. When Wayne was backed into a corner with a logical argument, he pulled out the we are Christians and we are more moral than you. The good dr. asked what type of morals they promoted? Then he proceded to tell the public today on talk radio in st. louis what the moral fiber of Barbara Schmitz is. Listen to the truth about HSUS.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%...

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 27, 2010 | 12:16 a.m.

("Detractors call it an unnecessary law passed on trumped-up puppy-mill allegations, one that puts the focus on the number of dogs instead of the quality of care.

"It's created a climate of fear for breeders in the state," said Sharyn Hutchens, legislative liaison for the Virginia Federation of Dog Clubs and Breeders.")
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/groups-r...

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 27, 2010 | 10:34 a.m.

The vast majority of breeding facilities in Missouri are already below or close to the 50 breeding dog limit, and will not be affected by the new law. The Missouri Department of Agriculture estimates that 36% of licensed breeders have more than 50 breeding dogs, while independent review of the inventory figures provided by licensed breeders found that only 18% had more than 50 adult dogs. So somewhere between two-thirds and four-fifths of all licensed breeders in the state already have fewer than 50 breeding dogs and will not need to make any changes in the number of dogs they have.

Moreover, Prop B limits only the number of sexually intact adult dogs used for breeding, and imposes absolutely no limit on the total number of dogs a person can own. A breeder can keep as many dogs as they want over the limit of 50, as long as those excess dogs are pets and not used for breeding. There is a network of animal shelters and rescue groups prepared to remove and re-home dogs from the small number of large-scale puppy mills that have more than 50 breeding dogs, should mill owners request assistance with placement. Since puppy mills have one year to comply with the new law before it takes effect, transports and adoptions can be managed over a long period of time; animal shelters or rescue groups won’t be flooded simultaneously.

(Report Comment)
Kim Egan October 27, 2010 | 12:43 p.m.

Michelle says, "A breeder can keep as many dogs as they want over the limit of 50, as long as those excess dogs are pets and not used for breeding."

Okay, how about:

A manufacturer can keep as many widgets as they want over the limit of 50, as long as those excess decoration are pets and not used for sale.

A lawyer can keep as many clients as they want over the limit of 50, as long as those excess clients are friends and not used for law suits.

A hospital can keep as many beds as they want over the limit of 50, as long as those excess beds are donations and not used for profit.

A house of worship can keep as many faithful as they want over the limit of 50, as long as those excess members are visitors and not used for proselytizing.

I mean, fair is fair, right?

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 1:09 p.m.

Kim Egan,

We prefer to let the Widget Society of America speak out in support of the humane care of widgets.

We also believe that lawyers are typically self-sufficient.

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 27, 2010 | 1:10 p.m.

None of the random comparisons you mention contain the inherent cruelty found in Missouri puppy mills.

(Report Comment)
Kim Egan October 27, 2010 | 1:30 p.m.

But Michelle, you're responding emotionally to the term "puppy mill" and are assuming that all large-scale commercial breeders are inherently cruel. What you're also ignoring is the lack of a clear definition of the term "puppy mill." If people have employees sufficient to care for and to socialize the dogs at such kennels, how are they any more abused than the family dog that is tied to a dog house in the back yard and fed when the family remembers it? Abuse is abuse, and there are already laws in place to deal with it. Those laws need to be *enforced* and this proposition will not change or fund that need.

In addition, Prop B targets licensed breeders only. It does not make provision for finding unlicensed kennels, it does not strictly define what a substandard kennel would be at all, nor does it provide funding to close down or to bring into compliance unlicensed or substandard licensed kennels.

Many of the requirements of this bill are also faulty. My Toy Fox Terrier puppies would not do well at 85 degrees for their first few days of life (for the record, I've bred 5 litters/15 puppies since 2003), but the proposition sets that as a maximum temperature. My TFTs would be targets for roaming dogs or large predatory birds with unfettered access to the outdoors. They are active little dogs that love to get dirty and they bring the dirt inside with them--must I be on hand 24/7 if they have unfettered access and constantly sweep my floor and bathe my dogs? Granted, I don't have the number of dogs needed to force compliance with Prop B, but these number limits will constantly be set on a downward spiral. Count on it.

Shelley, I think widgets are given adequate care and are humanely treated under present laws. I have to admit, however, that lawyers will not be a problem. If there was ever a breed that needed BSL, however, I think it would be lawyers . . .

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 2:01 p.m.

Kim Egan

I don't want to step on Michelle's toes in responding, but I wanted to address your note on newborn puppies.

For one, yes Proposition B certainly does set part of requirements for what is a standard environment, and hence a kennel fails these requirements is substandard.

Recommended _ambient_ temperatures for whelping boxes or other facilities is about 75-85 depending on the dog breed. Puppies when they're first born need higher temperature, but these usually get this from being near their mother. In addition, breeders can also make use of a heating pad, or even a heat lamp.

But the ambient temperature does fall into the guidelines, and is, in fact, essential for the health of the mother.

And you just made the statement that this new bill would be a burden for you BUT, you would be required to it anyway...this is more than a little illogical.

I wish that people would focus on Proposition B in Proposition B comment threads rather than on what coulda, woulda, shoulda, because then we have to wade through the unrelated or irrelevant bits to find the real concerns or comments _about_ Proposition B.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 2:10 p.m.

Correction:

And you just made the statement that this new bill would be a burden for you BUT, you would NOT be required to ADHERE TO it anyway...this is more than a little illogical.

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 27, 2010 | 2:21 p.m.

Yes, Kim. I do respond emotionally to the images of puppy mills considering I investigate complaints of alleged cruelty in them that we receive from concerned citizens, local shelters and law enforcement officials. I'm the casework coordinator for the HSUS Puppy Mills Task Force. I log the complaints, manage the cases, contact local authorities, deploy on the rescues, care for the SURVIVORS in the emergency shelters we set up and find placement for them with local shelters and rescue groups that can continue their rehabilitation and place them in forever homes. I know about the horrors all too well. I know the behavioral issues these dogs have. I know the medical issues these dogs have. All because they are bred for profit and quantity- with little regard for their well-being- and not quality and care as with a reputable breeder. My lab is a puppy mill puppy from a mill in Oklahoma- I think about how her mother spends her time- confined, being bred over and over until she can't breed anymore and then will be disposed of. It breaks my heart to think about my amazing dog's mom and how she lives. No, I didn't buy Stella, I adopted her after she was an impulse purchase in a mall pet shop and then abandoned.

Prop B will apply to all large-scale puppy mills, including both licensed and unlicensed facilities, and will establish common-sense standards for the proper care of dogs across the state. Prop B makes it a crime to house dogs in horrible conditions whether the owner is licensed or not, and ensures that dogs in such large-scale breeding facilities receive basic humane care.

(Report Comment)
Kim Egan October 27, 2010 | 3:04 p.m.

Shelley, it's not hard to go above a ten dog minimum if you're working on a breeding program, especially if you're a hobby/show breeder working on a multigenerational task. The thing about breeding dogs to improve/preserve a breed is that it takes more than a single pair to do so and sometimes that means repeating breedings, line breeding, and other breeding that requires genetic contributions from a number of dogs. Oh, and I hate to tell you--I'm not the only person with very small dogs. Those objections I made over my dogs apply to all breeders with dogs under 10 pounds at adulthood.

Michelle, I gotcha. You're an HSUS mouthpiece with vested interest in convincing people to adopt this proposition in order to further the AR agenda. I won't bother you any longer with my rhetoric. Thanks for unveiling yourself, though, to those of us who thought you were speaking as a private individual.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 3:12 p.m.

Kim

A hobby or show breeder does not breed for the express purposes of selling those dogs as pets.

As for small dogs:

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010...

Santo Hill Kennel. Big outdoor runs. Doggy doors for unfettered access. Shelter from elements. Small dogs.

Michelle writes a long eloquent response, taking her time to seriously address your question, and you call her a mouthpiece.

I think it's time we just give you the attention you deserve: none.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 3:18 p.m.

Oh, and here's a story about puppies coming to Wayside Waifs (wonderful group) from a puppy mill whose owner can't care for them:

http://www.kctv5.com/news/25538494/detai...

Warning: there's a video, and it shows cute puppies.

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 27, 2010 | 3:33 p.m.

Well, now, Kim- I'm certainly a private individual with concern for this issue. Just because I have so much exposure to the issue in general- does not remove my personal right to care. Missouri puppy mills produce up to one million puppies a year- 40% of all pet store puppies. Consumers across the country have reported purchasing MO puppy mill puppies with signficant health issues and/or genetic conditions. This is a country-wide problem that is based in MO.

Just so you know, my daughter's grandmother is a reputable breeder. I respect her, she does not treat her dogs like commodities or a cash crop. Her dogs are bred for quality and she cares about the homes they go to. She follows up with the new homes, making sure the dogs are adjusting well and will accept any dog back into her home that might end up in a shelter. She primarily houses indoors in her house and has a small kennel with runs in her back yard. She would never sell a puppy over the internet or to a pet store. She doesn't maintain many dogs and when she wants "genetic contributions" from other dogs, she networks with the other good breeders she shows with that are in her club.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 3:49 p.m.

Since Kim doesn't want cute puppy pictures, perhaps she'll appreciate these, instead:

http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_...

http://burningbird.net/propositionb/dead... (PDF)

Warning: not cute puppies, difficult photos.

(Report Comment)
Jan Hoadley October 27, 2010 | 3:54 p.m.

There are so many misinterpretations here it's appalling and simply underscores everyone has an opinion but it doesn't make it fact.

Ms. Nolen you say "In days of feast or famine, our farmers didn't whine either. They just got up and went to work from sunup to sundown." You know the vast majority of farmers do just that. After years of targeting by animal rights groups, vegan agenda groups, news reports, media misinformation and many other things many farmers speak up to tell our story and now we're "whining" about it?!

If farmers treat animals without regard to their safety and wellbeing they won't have animals! Guess what - sick, injured, mistreated animals aren't productive and if farmers are the greedy people y'all say then we're losing money doing that!

The fact is most farmers the animals come before anything else. If there's a cow needing care or animals out or any number of other things that takes priority over dinner. I wonder how many farms you visit NOW? You typecast well - corporate jets and all but most farmers do not have corporate jets! Most farmers do the best they can to produce healthy, safe food that is affordable so much so that Americans waste over 1/3 of it!

How DARE you Ms Nolen slander an entire industry of hard working people with your mouth full. Some of those farmers to make ends meet may breed dogs also - working dogs that work just as hard as the rest of the team. Herding dogs. Guardian dogs that are needed to keep 2 and 4 legged predators out of the fields and barns. Those may not meet the standards for PropB but it doesn't mean the dogs are abused!

one of the standards is things must be hosed down - that means someone with their dogs in the home - and any breeder now is considered "puppy mills" - is cruel because Heaven forbid the kitchen can't be hosed down.

What about the endless comments and accusations of "cruelty" because an animal - dog or otherwise - is confined? There are already laws on the books to insure humane care of dogs and if those aren't being enforced adding more expensive laws doesn't make sense.

You asked if everyone must become vegetarian. I suggest you and everyone criticizing go one further. Stop eating. Shut down your computer - which runs thanks to agriculture. Do you have any idea the number of products that have animal agriculture products in them? Park your car, don't buy any food except from those farmers you know/approve of and start growing your year round food supply yourself. If you're not willing to do that then it's time to stop criticizing the people who provide the variety of food you eat.

(Report Comment)
Kim Egan October 27, 2010 | 4:02 p.m.

Shelley, where did I say that a hobby/show breeder did breed dogs solely as pets? Where is the exemption for hobby/show breeders, then, if they are not intended to be covered by this bill? I want to remind you, however, that not all dogs produced by a hobby/show breeder are going to be show quality. TFTs have a whopping nine+ disqualifying faults, (the + is because UKC has more DQs than AKC does), so it's inevitable that some will be pets. I have a terrific little 2.5 week old male puppy with me here on the couch who may be going to a pet home because I think he lacks black pigment--it still looks greyish brown to me, which mean he's possibly a high-red chocolate instead of a tan. Chocolate is not a permitted color in UKC and high-red chocolates don't do well in the AKC ring, since they just look like badly pigmented tan dogs. It will break my heart to do it, since I had high hopes for this little guy from the da Mercie was bred, but I can think of three people on my list that would make a great owner for little Rider. His sister, who looks to have beautiful markings (it's way too early to tell about conformation) is headed off to be an emotionally disabled person's service dog when she grows up--so possibly no show dogs for me out of this litter at all.

Oh, just so that you understand, very few female dogs will stay 24/7 with their litters. Even on the first day, they need to get away for a bit. Puppies as tiny as TFTs are (3-5 ounces at birth) are very easy to dehydrate under a heat lamp or to burn on a heating pad. I use a hot water bottle, myself, to ensure that they stay warm.

I see that Mr. Santos uses dog doors for access to the inside of the building I guarantee you he locks them in at night or during bad weather. So, not so "unfettered" access.

As to Michelle, her answer to me was not "eloquent;" rather it was another impassioned plea for me to understand her moral superiority in adoption poor little Stella so that what she said would possibly have some impact on me. Not going to happen, sorry. She's one of the people responsible for the travesties that have been happening nationwide to people who have had animals stolen from them and killed under color of law. You don't expect the farmer to hold the chicken coop door open and say, "why sure, Br'er Fox, you tell a good story so come right in." Don't expect me to welcome her with open arms just because she can write a story that makes the average reader tear up.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking October 27, 2010 | 4:14 p.m.

Shelley Powers linked:

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010...

"Mark Santo calls his Yorkshire terriers at his Millersburg kennel. Santo says supporters of Proposition B should be focused on unlicensed breeders instead of breeders who comply by current state regulations."

(text of caption)

This is the same Santo Hill kennel that you held up in an earlier post as a post prop B model. Doesn't sound like he's particularly for the proposition, does it? Sounds like he might have something to lose if this passes also.

Another case of presenting something as it's not. Vote NO.

DK

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 27, 2010 | 4:18 p.m.

Well, Kim, if you are housing your breeding dogs in a chicken coop, we just might have the opportunity to meet one day.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 4:27 p.m.

Mark, doesn't matter if he's for Proposition B or not, his kennel demonstrates that you can meet the Proposition B standards and be a successful blue ribbon kennel.

(Report Comment)
Kim Egan October 27, 2010 | 4:34 p.m.

Wow, Michelle, I guess you were absent the day they taught metaphors.

Good catch, Mark! She wasn't talking about their success before, was she?

(Report Comment)
Allan Sharrock October 27, 2010 | 7:19 p.m.

www.humanewatch.org if you want the truth on HSUS.

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 27, 2010 | 7:46 p.m.

First, and most importantly, Proposition B is not about the HSUS. We're not voting on HSUS. We're voting on ensuring humane treatment for dogs in this state's commercial dog breeders.

However, since HumaneWatch has significant misinformation about both HSUS and Proposition B on its site:

HumaneWatch is one of the organizations funded by the Center for Consumer freedom.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?tit...

It is one of many so-called "action" web sites managed by a man named Richard Berkman:

http://www.bermanexposed.org/

How this all works is that businesses that don't like organizations such as, oh, The American Cancer Society, MADD, the Marine Stewardship Council, and so on, can "donate" money to the Center, which then hires Berkman and his company as a consultant to run this web of lies.

The alcohol companies are uncomfortable with MADD--viola! A group coming out against MADD.

Fast food companies don't like the obesity studies? Viola! Consumer freedom groups that pretend obesity isn't a problem.

I think you can see how this works. Now, extrapolate from that to HumaneWatch. But in case you need help, someone has already done the work for you:

http://www.humanewatch.info/blog/

There's no excuse for ignorance when you have access to the web.

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 27, 2010 | 8:31 p.m.

Kim, your juvenile insults mean me nothing to me. In the course of my advocacy for suffering animals, I've had far worse said to me by way smarter people.

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 27, 2010 | 8:59 p.m.

Thousands of puppy mill dogs discarded like trash each year in Missouri

http://yesonpropb.com/media/press-releas...

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 28, 2010 | 12:22 a.m.

Proposition B has nothing to do with giving dogs a decent, dignified burial.
Dead dogs feel no pain.
This is a public, human health issue, not mistreatment of a living animal.
Michelle Cascio, of H$U$:
Does your national organization look in the dumpsters of kill-shelters here in Missouri and across our nation or are these kill-shelters given a free pass because they advocate spay and neuter?
http://www.animal-abusesite.info/shelter...

(Report Comment)
mark anderson October 28, 2010 | 1:39 a.m.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%...

Foot in Mouth Disease discoverd in St. Louis.

(Report Comment)
Jessica Bryand October 28, 2010 | 2:39 a.m.

Too bad prop b does nothing to stop either of these issues. At least we will know how to properly handle the final disposition of the thousands of dogs that will have to be euthanized for breeders to come into compliance with Prop B.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking October 28, 2010 | 8:16 a.m.

Shelley Powers wrote:

"Mark, doesn't matter if he's for Proposition B or not, his kennel demonstrates that you can meet the Proposition B standards and be a successful blue ribbon kennel."

More from Mark Santo:

http://www.komu.com/KOMU/d7e2017e-80ce-1...

He's saying a lot of the same things that I and all the other "anti's" on these comments are, yet he has no real reason to be against it because it won't shut him down, or even cost him a whole lot (other then forcing him to do things he feels are not in the best interest of his animals).

To me, that gives him a legitimacy that some breeders that will be seriously impacted (or shut down) may not have. I know it doesn't invalidate your point, but perhaps he is someone for voters to listen to - someone with little or no self interest and a lot of experience.

DK

(Report Comment)
maria hargrove October 28, 2010 | 9:26 a.m.

This is very much about HSUS. They are the ones instigating raids on kennels. HSUS sent Barbara Schmitz into the debate with our colleague Dr. Foster. 190,000 supposedly signed that petition and she was the only sent to debate not once but twice. How did it end? She fabricated a story in an attempt to discredit him. HSUS Wayne Pacelle also debated Dr. Foster. When Wayne was backed into the corner he started the "HSUS is a Christian moral organization" bit. Dr. Foster asked if his treatment by Barbara Schmitz fit that description.

(Report Comment)
maria hargrove October 28, 2010 | 9:28 a.m.

HSUS wants to lump our good kennels in with the "mill cruel" bunch and make it impossible for them to stay in business. Should we use Barbara as an example of everything that is wrong with HSUS? Shall we lump everyone into the rotten thing that she pulled? Is this the best thing that HSUS has to represent them in a debate?

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 28, 2010 | 10:14 a.m.

Jessica-
"At least we will know how to properly handle the final disposition of the thousands of dogs that will have to be euthanized for breeders to come into compliance with Prop B."

You should realize that the vast majority of breeding facilities in Missouri are already below or close to the 50 breeding females limit, and will not be affected by the new law. The Missouri Department of Agriculture estimates that 36% of licensed breeders have more than 50 breeding dogs, while independent review of the inventory figures provided by licensed breeders found that only 18% had more than 50 adult dogs. So somewhere between two-thirds and four-fifths of all licensed breeders in the state already have fewer than 50 breeding dogs and will not need to make any changes in the number of dogs they have.

There is a network of animal shelters and rescue groups prepared to remove and re-home dogs from the small number of large-scale puppy mills that have more than 50 breeding dogs, should mill owners request assistance with placement. Since puppy mills have one year to comply with the new law before it takes effect, transports and adoptions can be managed over a long period of time; animal shelters or rescue groups won’t be flooded simultaneously.

(Report Comment)
maria hargrove October 28, 2010 | 10:37 a.m.

Michelle are you going to pay for these dogs that you "take?"

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 28, 2010 | 11:16 a.m.

maria hargrove, I've had many a discussion with jim foster, and he is not what I would call a master of debate.

Do you have links? Or are you just giving your viewpoint, and expecting us to accept it at face value?

The Missourian is quite generous, we can add links to comments.

(Report Comment)
Jessica Bryand October 28, 2010 | 11:21 a.m.

Michelle, sorry, but I have yet to meet someone in my area under the 50 limit. Can you show me how you know that information? And yes, Michelle, we have heard several diffrent plans for these dogs, are you going to pay for the dogs you are siezing or will they be euthanized?

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 28, 2010 | 11:30 a.m.

Mark, it sounds like you're agreeing with me and disagreeing with me at the same time.

Regardless, the real point is Mr. Santo's kennel could easily meet the new standards. That he doesn't like them isn't necessarily a factor. I don't know of many businesses that _like_ the necessary rules that ensure safety of worker, consumer, or the environment, but if we don't have these rules, we all suffer.

Except in the case of commercial dog breeding, it's dogs that suffer. Maybe they're not people, but they feel pain, cold, hunger. I'm not going to turn my back on these dogs because Mr. Santo doesn't like the rules.

As for Mr. Santo's claims: seriously?

Devastating impact on the economy? Massive unemployment? Dogs priced at $10,000?

And he played the newborn puppy game: he knows that ambient temperatures have to be between 75-85, or the mother will get sick. And that the mother helps keep the puppies warm, and breeders can also use heating pads. This statement of his was a particularly deceptive comment.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking October 28, 2010 | 11:37 a.m.

Michelle Cascio wrote:

"animal shelters or rescue groups won’t be flooded simultaneously."

Here is an article describing Pennsylvania's experience:

http://pghpetlandprotest.wordpress.com/2...

"Flood of dogs The more breeders who close their kennels, the busier Cindy Myers gets.

Since October, Myers’ Mount Gretna dog rescue organization, A Tail to Tell, has been inundated with dogs of all kinds.

“We went from getting maybe 30 dogs a month to getting 50 a week,” she said, virtually all of them animals surrendered by breeders getting out of the business. A Tail to Tell works as a sort of clearinghouse, placing some dogs with breed-specific rescue groups, others with whatever group will accept them. “Every rescue [group] we work with is filled to capacity and overflowing,” Myers said."

Missouri has roughly 5 times as many dogs as PA. I have a feeling, if this passes, that we'll need a LOT of pentobarbital.

Perhaps HSUS might want to invest some of its donations in say, Fort Dodge or Virbac stock. Why not make the most of your efforts?

DK

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 28, 2010 | 11:41 a.m.

Jessica Bryand, Santo Hill Kennel is below 50, and is a blue ribbon kennel.

The USDA reports we can get through the APHIS database don't always show the number of dogs, but other breeders that have less than 50 are Elk Horn Creek kennel, Christine Greener, B & J's Kennel, Monarch Kennel, Carolyn and Daniel Phillips, Norton's Kennel, Shadow Ridge Kennel, and Mam Kennel.

Hopefully that's a start for you.

As for the dogs, you might want to check out the Yahoo email group set up by rescuers for the Schindler dog auction this weekend:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Aucti...

And you might want to check out the recent stories from the Wayside Waifs rescue:

http://www.kctv5.com/news/25538494/detai...

(Report Comment)
Shelley Powers October 28, 2010 | 11:48 a.m.

And Mark Foeking because of Missouri's dubious distinction of being the Puppy Mill Capital of the US, we also have five times the number of shelters and rescue organizations, too.

And they're, unfortunately, very experienced.

We also have support coming from all over. An upcoming auction has support coming in from New York, Texas, Colorado, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, and other states beyond.

Shelters and rescues all across the country are watching this election, hoping for it, and gearing up to see how they can help us make this transition.

The old saying used to be, "It takes a village to raise a child". Well, in this case, the village is made up of animal organizations across the country, who will help.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking October 28, 2010 | 12:20 p.m.

Shelley Powers wrote:

"we also have five times the number of shelters and rescue organizations, too."

Do you know that for a fact?

Because I looked at this site:

http://www.pgaa.com/rescues.html#listing...

They give listings for animal rescues by state. I used the "find" command to look at all instances of "dog" (not in a title) for both Missouri and PA. I got approximately 85 rescues for Missouri and 105 for PA. These are general rescues as well as breed specific ones.

I know this is an imperfect comparison, but if there were really 5 times as many rescues in MO as in PA, I'd think we'd have more of them listed than PA does.

What is the source of your assertion that we have 5 times as many?

DK

(Report Comment)
Jessica Bryand October 28, 2010 | 1:46 p.m.

“They were overwhelming us with dogs,” In His Hands Small Animal Rescue in Hiltons, Va., said of area breeders who were trying to get under the limit." Well here is one example of what a rescue group had to deal with. Who will help fund the orginazations that take in these dogs? Are these dogs just leaving one cage to be put into another cage?

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 28, 2010 | 2:10 p.m.

Thanks Shelley for letting me know that many kill shelters across our great nation are getting ready to dispose of these dogs.
I find that so comforting as you seek to destroy a part of Missouri's livelihood aa you take down some good, decent, hardworking entrepreneurs who provide a desired legal service.
You progs must be so proud...and pompous too.

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 28, 2010 | 2:31 p.m.

Jessica, if you are referring to the puppy mill raids that have involved the Puppy Mill Task Force- then yes- we do vet and treat the dogs we rescue. Then we work with our network of Emergency Services Placement Partners so that the survivors receive the additional rehab they need and find forever homes.

I,personally, reached out to some of the rescue groups in Pennyslvannia when we received reports that they were overwhelmed. We offered to help transport dogs to shelters and rescue groups with better resources. We were not taken up on our offer of assistance.

As far as VA- it is a direct reporting state- you can go to the website and view the relinqueshment statistics for dogs from one year to the next. For the years following the new breeder regulations the number of surrender dogs actually dropped. http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin...

There were over 45000 dogs surrendered in 2008 compared to over 36000 in 2009.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 28, 2010 | 2:36 p.m.

("just received a notice about a dog at the Summerville GA shelter. I don't know what their kill rate really is, but that they kill dogs after FIVE days")
http://dogsdeservefreedom.blogspot.com/2...
("Stop High-Kill Shelters in North Carolina from using Animal Gas Chambers")
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=22...
("SPACE IS VERY LIMITED HERE AT THE SHELTER. WE ARE A HIGH VOLUME,KILL SHELTER!")
http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/pittco...

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 28, 2010 | 2:40 p.m.

("CCF Director of Research David Martosko expressed a growing sentiment among animal lovers that the Humane Society isn’t living up to its name: "Pet lovers donated over $85 million to HSUS in 2007, but only a tiny sliver of that went to helping homeless dogs and cats.

That’s nothing compared to what HSUS spends hassling hunters, complaining about circus elephants, and trying to remove meat and dairy foods from the American diet."

This news comes at a critical time for HSUS, which has been trying to rally support for its radical dog breeding legislation in more than two dozen states.

Martosko continued: "HSUS is telling Americans how hard it is for local shelters to stay open in this economic climate. But it’s taking their donations straight to the bank.")
http://consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_...

(Report Comment)
Michelle Cascio October 28, 2010 | 3:10 p.m.

Hhhmmm... wondering if you have seen the annual report to our membership of 11 million members who support our work?
http://www.humanesociety.org/about/overv...

We are a transparent organization, are you?

Let's bring this back to helping dogs in commercial breeding facilities in MO by voting Yes on Prop B.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 28, 2010 | 3:24 p.m.

("Michelle Cascio October 28, 2010 | 3:10 p.m.
We are a transparent organization, are you?")

I'm not very organized, but my window curtains are open.

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 28, 2010 | 3:29 p.m.

("Mark A Landers October 28, 2010 | 1:28 p.m.
There is a tiny minority of less 1500 that is being attacked. They have little in economic resources. By nature, they are a group of introverts that have chosen to relate to animals rather than people. They don't have the political wherewithal nor the money to combat such an attack.

A rich powerful group has come into our state and made name calling, sterotyping, purposful deception, and lieing appear to be acceptable.

http://www.humanesociety.org/about/leade.........

Hear this person in action http://humanewatch.org/index.php/site/po.........

She is an attorney, does that her immune from accountability?

On that link you can listen to her debate veterinarian on Prop B.

The animal rights industry believes with their power and money they can make Missourian's accept this behavior.

Wayne Pacelle has said, "Missouri's moral compass is off"

I say bullying in any form is never acceptable.

I say Wayne Pacelle's perception of Missouri is off.

Vote NO on Prop B

Mark A Landers

Saturday and Sunday I told my story in the comments section on this article. It's way over 250 words so too long to be news worthy. It's numberous posts during the day and night.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010.........

At this point in my life I don't think anything is beneath the animal rights then this paper ran this story

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/storie.........

Now I not only fear for my dogs that are living, but I fear they may come and dig up my dogs that have passed just to see if I buried them deep enough. Dear God what is happening in America? Why can't people read and verify facts?

Please people wake up and listen to what you are saying and what you are doing.

My partner keeps telling me that it's not me you are attacking personally that you guys don't realize how you have been used by these people to make money for themselves. But it is me that you are attacking.

I posted some pics of my kennel and dogs on facebook last night. I am not computer literate so don't expect a lot. I know its not as good as most of the licensed kennels in Missouri. And it's not as good as I want. But it is what I have.")

(Report Comment)
mark anderson October 28, 2010 | 8:02 p.m.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%...

President of Franklin County Humane Society is also a DVM

he condemns prop B
very well thought out and written with logic.

(Report Comment)
jim foster October 28, 2010 | 8:56 p.m.

I wish that Rose had been with us this past winter to look in the "eyes" of the many horses that we saw in Missouri pastures. Starvation was rampant this past winter. Why? Because of the common sense approach of humane folks. The end of the horse slaughter business has brought an even more cruel death to our horse population. Our horse industry has gone down the drain and people are abandoning horses along the roadsides. Should we have another bad winter? Has Rose taken notice of the grain prices? Does she know that many farmers corn only yielded 35-80 bushels? Does she know the current high price of corn and soybeans?
My parents worked very hard to make sure that my sisters and I had values and a religious faith. My father has his Sunday and funeral best and my mom can match any woman alive as far as gettin pretty. My parents are not the wealthy Ewings of the television series "DALLAS." They are like many farmers in this state who keep chugging along while people sit back and judge them without having ever been on a farm. We respect our livestock and do the best job possible to bring to the consumer the healthiest and most economical product to your grocery store. This isn't just meat I'm talking about. Take a look at what makes up your conveniet quick prepare meals. Corn and soybeans. Proposition B is a clever formula to end our kennel industry. Your Missouri Department of Agriculture has already stated that no kennel can survive this. Your Missouri Veterinary Medical Association has condemned it.
Several shelters cannot not take a stand although they do support the "intent." Why? Because they know that they cannot handle the fall out and they know that there are good breeders who will suffer. Prop B, because of zero common sense planning, is dangerous to newborn pups. Changes made in the temperature range and an unlimited access to an outside pen will kill puppies. It only mandates once a day cleaning of a solid surface. Would you only change a baby's diaper once daily? The size requirements would not be financially feasible and those kennels who have rebuilt or built new facilities would be financially ruined. The 50 dog cap is Anti_American. Lets put a cap on Machen Toyota in Columbia where I just bought my new Tacoma. How about if a special interest group doesn't like it that we promote Japanese products and they decide to tell Joe that he can only sell 50 Tacoma trucks on his lot every 6 months. I am specialize in kennels. I like many Missouri vets work for good kennels and good people who do it right. You cannot put everyone into the "cruel" category. If you found 20 rats in your home, would you burn down the house to kill them? Alot of people stand to go down the tube on this and so do alot of dogs. It is so wrong that HSUS has exempted themselves, shelters,, rescues. VOTE NO

(Report Comment)
jim foster October 28, 2010 | 8:57 p.m.
(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro October 28, 2010 | 9:50 p.m.

("jim foster October 28, 2010 | 9:39 p.m.
Dear Rose,
Come visit us in Shelby County or any of our counties up here in Northeast Missouri and we will take you back home.
We aren't a bunch of suits ridin around in Lear jets. Our order in life is God, family, friends,Country, community and yes all of God's creatures...
We live a simple life of hard work with our hands and yes we do subscribe to using new technology. Take off some weekend and bring several busloads of your friends and we will show you how us backward rednecks work. When we are done we will feed you the best of our home cooking and we will visit and share stories. There are a variety of Churches here that all welcome whoever enter. There is also a new performing arts theater that shows $4 dollar first run movies on the weekends with concessions that are dirt cheap. It is nice and quiet out here until someone declares war on the ones that we love. We have people out here who stand to lose everything because of an unfair proposition.Try putting on the shoes of someone who just borrowed several thousand dollars to build a new kennel. Your payments are based on 100 dogs. This is your only income in a sour economy. You pay your own health insurance and make a difference in your community. Put on these shoes and then be the judge of this situation before making the kind of statement that you made. The door is always open up here as it is in many a small community. Yes Rose you can go home. We are still here. Where did you go?")

(Report Comment)

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