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Columbia Star Dinner Train's opening night met with protest

Friday, July 15, 2011 | 8:58 p.m. CDT; updated 4:35 p.m. CDT, Tuesday, July 19, 2011
Aimee Wehmeier leaves the Columbia Star Dinner Train protest Friday with the aid of a handicap-accessible van. Advocates for people with disabilities are unhappy that the train lacks an accessible car.

COLUMBIA – A line of 14 people formed at the opening of the Columbia Star Dinner Train Friday night – with no intention to ride.

The Columbia Star's inaugural run was met by protesters from the disabilities community wielding signs with phrases such as "I would rather be on the dinner train" and "I have wheels, will you subsidize me?"

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Since June 2010, when Central States Rail Associates, the dinner train's operator, met with the Columbia City Council and proposed bringing the dinner train to Columbia, advocates for people wth disabilities have voiced concern over the train's lack of wheelchair accessibility.

Protesters began arriving around 5 p.m. to protest the train's first ride. At the demonstration, many protesters voiced their disapproval of the council's use of public funding and resources to support the business coming to Columbia.

Last year, the Columbia Convention and Visitors Bureau approved $45,000 to help move the train to Columbia from Denver, Iowa. About $20,000 more in public money was used to upgrade the exisiting train station's facilities and prepare them for use. The Columbia Star also uses the city's rail line, which runs between Columbia and Centralia and the city-owned train station at 6501 Brown Station Road.

"Our biggest problem is that the government gave $65,000 to the business," Allison Reinhart, one of the protesters, said. "The business being inaccessible is bad, but them giving the train tax dollars is what we're mad about."

Troy Balthazor, secretary of the Mid-Missouri Advocacy Coalition, hopes this demonstration will have a lasting effect.

"What we want to accomplish is to follow through and make a clear statement to the city and the council that we expect more of them in the future," Balthazor said.

An estimated 85 tickets were sold for opening night, according to Brian Cunningham, a Columbia Star employee. He said things were running smoothly.


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Comments

frank christian July 15, 2011 | 10:00 p.m.

This "protest" in my opinion, is the worst waste of time and effort for disabled rights that might be imagined. The entrepreneurs that are trying to start a new business, (remember the words?) are within the law (Their cars built in 30's are exempt from ADA). They have a car with disabled accessibility which will be made available when "business" makes it feasible. What does Homer Page want from these people?

Some of the concern expressed above has to do with private business using public money and infrastructure. Again in my opinion, Mr. Page & Co. should be in Washington inquiring about their share of the stimulus billions that no one has been able to locate since it was borrowed and spent.

(Report Comment)
John M. Nowell, III July 16, 2011 | 8:00 a.m.

Frank, I couldn't agree more. Well said.

My step-mother used an electric scooter and had a converted van like the picture showing Aimee Wehmeier. These vans are wonderful becasue it allowed my step-mother to keep her independance and do things for herself.

She also purchased a collapsible scooter that was narrow and could be folded into the trunk of a car, and used on air plane flights, stowed as baggage.

If there were a situation such as the dinner train, and she wanted to participate, a family member would travel with her and assist her onto the train (carry her if needed) and her small scooter, whcih would fit in the narrow isle of the train and under a dinning table.

It seems like the train owners are working towards accommodating everyone, but a business, unlike government, has to live within it's means, or cease to exist. Would the protestors like to "get their way" and then wonder why the dinner train no longer operated? Or force the train owners to bend to their will, then in all likelyhood, not be a dinner patron.

We have become a nation of people waiting to become victims, not problem solvers. Quit whining, and work around the obstacle, much like Aimee Wehmeier did when she purchased her van.

(Report Comment)
Bill Fisher July 16, 2011 | 9:40 a.m.

"There's something wrong with me, everyone should conform to MY needs!!"

(Report Comment)
Mike Martin July 16, 2011 | 10:15 a.m.

The comments here surprise me, since each of you normally condemns this sort of government involvement in private business in your numerous posts.

These disability advocates have every American right to protest the dinner train subsidy, as it's their tax money too.

Add to them all local restaurant owners, who should also be furious that their tax dollars went to subsidize a competitor.

When the dinner train took the $65,000 public subsidy, it ceased being the sort of private, entrepreneurial enterprise Frank Christian is making it out to be.

It's now a public-private partnership, subject to a host of new taxpayer-funded obligations, like accessibility.

The ADA law granting the historic train exemption falls under 42 U.S.C. § 12184(c), which specifically addresses "public transportation services provided by a PRIVATE entity."

Emphasis on PRIVATE entity. When you take $65,000 of taxpayer money to start your business, you're not a private entity. You can't have it both ways.

If they were lawsuit-minded, the disability community would probably have a cause of action against the City of Columbia for providing a public subsidy without requiring full public access.

Instead, they are taking what I consider a preferred course -- making their voices heard on an important matter of the public interest that we see all around us these days -- private businesses taking taxpayer dollars for their own profit, while our taxes and public debts keep going up and up.

(Report Comment)
John Hinten July 16, 2011 | 12:15 p.m.

Thank you Mike ... I get tired of pointing out the obvious to the close minded .... as my favorite quote states ... "ignorance is the ultimate disability" ... I may have a few disabilities, but none of them are "fixable" ... most of the ones I encounter who think violating civil rights is OK or condone a "city admitted mistake" ... those can be fixed with education.

(Report Comment)
Mike Martin July 16, 2011 | 1:19 p.m.

It upsets me to see how often, especially in recent years, Columbia's leaders have sacrificed what I consider the community's guiding ethos in some mad dash for money, hoping, I guess, for some elusive trickle-down effects.

Several people have told me that in years past, City Hall would never have subsidized a disability-inaccessible business of any type, for the bad message it would send if nothing else. "Columbia used to be very disability friendly," I've heard.

What's more, this "low car" lifestyle community now has a downtown almost totally focused on how to house and park cars -- compliments, in part, of low-car lifestyle leaders like former Mayor Hindman. How on Earth did that happen?

And what about Columbia's widely-known liberal ethos? Help the common person. Improve racial equality. Don't give handouts to private business. Improve accessibility. Provide basic human services. Don't become a police state, complete with cameras at every corner and light.

Our leaders have mostly thrown out that old playbook over the past decade, in favor of a reactionary tone-deaf approach that increasingly knee jerks its way from boondoggle to boondoggle. (Make no mistake -- the dinner train subsidy is a public relations boondoggle).

They listen to their constituents after the fact, only too-late realizing the disastrous effects of their policies (e.g. Tony St. Romaine admitting the dinner train "mistake").

Now what I'm hearing -- which really surprises me -- are people in this community adopting that same tone-deaf attitude.

Calling our disabled citizens "whiners" and complainers who "get enough already" and need to get out of the way of "progress" is a perfect -- and perfectly callous -- example.

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 16, 2011 | 1:20 p.m.

Mike Martin - Gov't is into every aspect of our business atmosphere. Takeover of major auto makers would be just one instance. Every other concern of the Disability Commission having been addressed, they and you jump on the grant provided by our Tourism Commission from funds allocated by our City Council to promote what? Tourism! Why? To create more business opportunities for all in and around Columbia, a worthy goal which will and has benefited all, in and around Columbia. Have you voiced your concerns to the Council? "These disability advocates have every American right to protest" is a worn out statement of an obvious fact. No one is denying that everyone of the 14 had the right to protest. What we have here is Don Quixote and a small following tilting at windmills.

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 16, 2011 | 1:35 p.m.

In the interest of accuracy, I wanted to point out that the 20 grand was spent by the city to ensure that the train facilities, including restrooms, parking spaces and the ramp to board the train, are in compliance with ADA.

See this prior Missourian report:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/storie...

A new car would require 2500 riders at $70/head to pay just for the car....unless non-disabled riders had to subsidize tickets, in which case fewer disabled riders would be required.

Won't happen, but it would be interesting to see the marketing research raw data for this train.

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 16, 2011 | 1:37 p.m.

Does anyone know if the train pays any rent to the city for use of rail and facilities?????

Or is the only obligation...sales taxes?

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 16, 2011 | 1:59 p.m.

Michael, Frank, et al.: Could it be that bringing anything new to Columbia (whereas anywhere else there would be little or no controversy) is like the mating of elephants?

It must be done at a high level.

There is always a great deal of heat and noise noise generated.

It [frequently] takes a long time to see any result.

(Or does that describe University of Missouri System?)

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 16, 2011 | 2:03 p.m.

If enough people keep complaining and finding fault with what is being attempted here with the dinning train, then it is quite likely that paying clients will avoid being singled out and protested against.
End of the train, end of the problem, end of $65,000.00, and now the protesters will be free to look for another opportunity.

Myself, and a number of other Volunteers started to assemble money and materials to build a restroom in a small park. Word got out that we going to do this project. We were immediately pounced on by a few who commenced instructing and correcting us as to how it should be built and as to where. I was told off several times by some of them. We had not even picked the spot yet or gotten any money together. So.. it did not happen!

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 16, 2011 | 2:23 p.m.

Ellis: lol to the mating of elephants. I heartily agree.

Harold: I understand about the restroom deal. About a decade ago, I wanted to purchase a sizable tract of land (325 acres in Boone County). The land was mixed pastures/forests, and I intended to leave it that way SO LONG AS I could zone 5 acres bordering the highway for my business. This was a long-held dream of mine, to have a small business sitting on a very large tract of pristine land. I was even willing (publicly stated) to sign a legal agreement NOT to develop the land for 15 years, and I'd have gone 30 if pushed.

Sooooo, I had a "surrounding" landowners meeting. Went well.

And then I got a letter from a former Boone County commissioner who didn't even live in the area threatening me with a lawsuit for spot zoning.

So, I said to hell with it.

And, within 2 years, the land was purchased and subdivided into 10 acre lots for houses...which is what it is now. Too bad. It sure was a pretty tract of land.

So, I didn't double the size of my business, I didn't hire 12 new employees, they didn't build houses anywhere, they didn't pay taxes, they didn't buy food or clothes or TVs or dishwashers, they didn't do anything since they didn't exist.

Oh well.

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 16, 2011 | 2:38 p.m.

Ellis: What I find absolutely fascinating is that NEITHER newspaper in town saw fit to put a reporter on board the maiden voyage...er...ride of Columbia's new train. He/she could have reported back on how they liked the ride, the quality of the meals and service, the ambiance, how riders felt about no ADA compliance, etc.

But, no.

Instead, we got two reports of gripe sessions.

How odd.

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 16, 2011 | 4:12 p.m.

Frank, I would like to see actual proof that the train is exempt from ADA (not that I think they ADA should exist). The city and the train owners say they are exempt, the protesters say they aren't. I don't think it's as open and shut as you claim.

As for Homer and his compatriots going to Washington asking about stimulus money, I find one can get more done by acting locally. The legislators in Washington don't really care what we think, as long as enough of us will re-elect them.

(Report Comment)
Mike Martin July 16, 2011 | 4:26 p.m.

The dinner train subsidy is just one small part of a much larger problem -- taxpayer handouts to private enterprises that have little or no impact on the larger community. All the fuss about the jobs and entrepreneurism represented by this train is laughable. You can make the same argument for ANY enterprise.

If government wants to help business, it can make broad-based tax cuts that help all businesses, then let the market decide who wins and who loses. By subsidizing certain businesses to the exclusion of others, government -- and we taxpayers -- are making that determination, not the market. Many of these subsidized enterprises, therefore, are bound to fail.

(Report Comment)
Eric Cox July 16, 2011 | 4:28 p.m.

"I have wheels, will you subsidize me?" So no tax money is spent on grants for disabled housing, transportation, medical care, or job training? I'm really surprised to learn that?

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 16, 2011 | 4:40 p.m.

Hey???? Where is my "entitlement money"? I also have at least two handicaps but I don't expect or demand any special dispensations. I make do for myself and adjust accordingly.

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 16, 2011 | 5:42 p.m.

John S. - Mike Martin provided,"The ADA law granting the historic train exemption falls under 42 U.S.C. § 12184(c), which specifically addresses "public transportation services provided by a PRIVATE entity." Why not ask him, the city, the train owners, or the protesters?

Mike also gave us "When you take $65,000 of taxpayer money to start your business, you're not a private entity." You might ask him about that if you get around to it.

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 16, 2011 | 6:04 p.m.

Michael Williams:

Odd? No. Selective, yes.

In a few more days, God willing, NASA'S space shuttle "Atlantis" will complete its final mission.

On the shuttle is one woman, who holds three degrees from University of Missouri System. She has logged more time on the International Space Station than probably any other serving Astronaut, which may be why she was selected to be on this final flight.

Did you read about her in the Missourian or Tribune? Surely you must have seen the lavish TV coverage on KOMU. The adulation was truly embarrassing.

You see, Michael, in her youth this poor woman committed a cardinal sin: she chose to matriculate on the wrong campus! [Sarcasm button has now been disengaged.]

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 16, 2011 | 6:16 p.m.

MikeMartin: We all understand your comments about the propriety of the city giving money to a private business. I guess I would extend your comment to include the question "Why is Columbia in the train business in the first place?"

Or, "Why is Columbia in the airport business in the first place?"

Insofar as the airport is concerned, users pay a users fee.

And, according to the following 7/12/2011 report by Kermit Miller, the train pays a users fee, too.

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/s...

A quote from the link: "The train will pay a user fee to the city of Columbia, which owns the rail line. And the business will have the regulatory expenses of both a restaurant and of a train."
_______________________

I see little difference between the airport issue and the train issue. The city owns both, and the city promotes both. So, I guess the argument is: Should the city be in the business of owning/promoting either one?

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 16, 2011 | 6:21 p.m.

Good gawd, Ellis. I had no idea...not one iota.

Rolla???

Geez, I'm setting here trying to figure out what to write about this news I did not know before, about how appalled I am for this state....and my fingers are speechless.

A first......

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 16, 2011 | 6:53 p.m.

Frank, I would like to see something from someone who actually knows about the ADA - not Mike, not you, or the various other commenters. And besides, you were the one parroting the claim that the train is not required to follow the ADA, where did you get that legal advice from?

Seems the Tribune or the Missourian could have talked to a big-city lawyer who is involved in ADA litigation and received more of an "expert" comment for this story. Frankly, I don't think Mike's quoted bit of the ADA applies since the train is more entertainment than transportation.

(Report Comment)
Mike Martin July 16, 2011 | 6:59 p.m.

I don't remember City Hall giving a direct subsidy to any start up airlines, but since the comparison has now been drawn, let's investigate what happened to the public subsidies that were given to a start up airline at Columbia Regional Airport, Wes Stricker's Ozark Airlines.

From the 2004 Trib story, "Ozark faces bankruptcy":

"Stricker’s aviation ventures received public funding on several occasions, including $166,000 to Ozark Air Lines in state Community Development Block Grant money for infrastructure improvements at the airport.

Scott Holste, spokesman for the attorney general’s office, said the company failed to create and retain 21 jobs as it had promised and now owes the state about $237,000.

Regional Economic Development Inc. also had contributed $50,000 for site preparation for the airport hangar, including building a concrete apron to allow large planes to access services...

The bankruptcy proceedings...have also become a roadblock to a tax lawsuit against Ozark Air Lines in Boone County.

Last year, Boone County Collector Pat Lensmeyer went after the company for delinquent 2001 aircraft taxes of more than $43,000. The court proceedings have been on hold since March because of the bankruptcy....

Meanwhile, a hangar owned by a company formerly affiliated with Ozark Air Lines - Ozark Management - faces a foreclosure sale at the steps of the Boone County Courthouse on Dec. 22.

Union Planters maintains in documents that Stricker and his wife owed the bank more than $18 million in principal, interest and late fees as of March. The bank announced the foreclosure on the hangar as a result of default on the initial $21.8 million aircraft loan."

http://archive.showmenews.com/2004/dec/2...

(Report Comment)
John Hinten July 16, 2011 | 8:40 p.m.

http://www.ada.gov/pubs/adastatute08.pdf...

"Sec. 12161. Definition
(4) Rail passenger car. The term "rail passenger car" means, with respect to intercity rail transportation, single-level and bi-level coach cars, single-level and bi-level dining cars, single- level and bi-level sleeping cars, single-level and bi-level lounge cars, and food service cars."

think maybe it is a form of transportation afterall

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 16, 2011 | 8:54 p.m.

MikeM: As I asked, "Why is Columbia in the train business in the first place?" "Why is Columbia in the airport business in the first place?"
____________________

I take it you say...no.

Fair enuf position.

PS: I was interested in traveling to Memphis from Columbia airport next week. A search yesterday showed a round-trip ticket cost 850 bucks. I said "no thanks" and shelved the idea. Oh well.

The airport is going NOWHERE until economic development takes place on land surrounding the airport.

Don't know about the train, however.

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 16, 2011 | 11:16 p.m.

Had occasion recently to visit Eastern Iowa Regional Airport (Cedar Rapids, Iowa City, Amana). In some respects the area served is similar to the one here. For example, there's a major public university, plus some private colleges, significant health care facilities, etc. but the population is higher and Cedar Rapids has some serious manufacturing. The airport isn't close to any larger commercial airports. Access from the Interstate and from two major federal highways is excellent.

There are direct flights to Chicago, and I think there's commuter service to Minneapolis as well.

[The airport's name is a bit odd when you consider that there are three airports in Iowa with commercial service that are farther to the east. They aren't called "regional."]

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 17, 2011 | 7:46 a.m.

@ Michael Williams:

You have correctly identified the campus where the astronaut received her BS, MS and PhD degrees.

Two previous astronauts from that campus received equal "royal" treatment by our local media.

KOMU uses a booster station to bring their signal to the Rolla-Waynesville-St. Robert-St.-James area, and KOMU solicits advertising from merchants in that area. But if MS&T/Rolla residents wish to see something about MS&T on TV they access a station from Springfield. This is odd, since Springfield HAS a large state university of its own, and is no closer to Rolla than Columbia is. Springfield News-Leader newspaper is supportive of MS&T, and has produced feature articles about MS&T.

But let's not rush things! We've only been around for 141 years. Oldest technical institute west of the Mississippi; first public institution in the United States to teach mining and metallurgy.

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 17, 2011 | 7:56 a.m.

Mike Martin - "City Hall" built Columbia Regional Airport. http://www.flymidmo.com/history.html

Many thought that it was doomed when Jeff. City declined the opportunity to become part of our "Region".

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 17, 2011 | 9:36 a.m.

John Schultz - "you were the one parroting the claim that the train is not required to follow the ADA, where did you get that legal advice from?"

I got that "legal advice" from Columbia Daily Tribune, then "parroted" them. They, apparently were "parroting", "Officials with Central States Rail Associates, the train’s operator,". Had I known I was preparing a brief, I may have obtained a lawyer (would have to be ACLU).

"Seems the Tribune or the Missourian could have talked to a big-city lawyer who is involved in ADA litigation and received more of an "expert" comment for this story." Possibly Tribune and Missourian do not share your angst over the "exemption". Have you asked Mike M. about, "When you take $65,000 of taxpayer money to start your business, you're not a private entity."?

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 17, 2011 | 10:02 a.m.

This (train) business is beginning to sound like the title of a novel by William Faulkner:

"The Sound and the Fury."

In cases like this the train operator pays a user fee to the entity that owns the rails (tracks). For example, AMTRAK pays fees to the owner(s) of the rails over which it's passenger trains run; VIA Rail (Canada) pays fees to a transportation company located in Colorado for use of rails from Winnipeg to Churchill, Manitoba. (How's that for an international arrangement?).

(Report Comment)
Mike Martin July 17, 2011 | 10:30 a.m.

A couple of you seem to be just blasting away with no real knowledge about many of these issues, which leads me to agree with John Schultz about the need for expert opinions.

The suggestions, for instance, that the disability advocates are whiners, complainers, and fault-finders demanding special services, etc. reflect a real lack of knowledge about ADA or the people who advocate for it.

People from the disability community know the laws and understand this particular issue better than anyone. And rather than sitting around waiting for handouts, as a few people here have implied, local disability advocates work extremely hard to make life better for this community's disabled residents.

Aimee Wehmeier, pictured in the photo at the top, is the director of Services for Independent Living (SIL) (http://www.silcolumbia.org) and a noted local expert on disability issues who frequently testifies before legislators and lawmakers.

I can't see Aimee protesting something like this if she didn't have clearly and legally-defensible reasons. She's also plenty busy, and it's doubtful she'd spend time on an unworthy pursuit.

You can read more about Aimee here, where she's up for a 2010 Columbia Tribune Women in Business Award:
http://www.tribuneawards.com/ArticleAime...

And here, where she won the 2010 Governors Council on Disability Award:
http://oa.mo.gov/co/releases/2010/Govern...

And here's another long feature story about Aimee in the Trib last year:

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010...

If you're locked out of the Trib, read it here:

http://www.kerseymobility.com/blog-post....

"Wehmeier, 39, attended MU and received a degree in educational and counseling psychology. She later earned a master's degree in business administration. Before taking the top spot at SIL, she worked 10 years at State Farm Insurance, where she wore a variety of hats, including claims representative and supervisor."

The Governor's Council had this to say about Ms. Wehmeier:

"Ms. Wehmeier's activities demonstrate excellence in advocacy and leadership, both within the disability community and in the community at large. She is a visible and highly credible spokesperson for the cross-disability community, and is committed to inclusion through universal design."

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 17, 2011 | 3:00 p.m.

Mike Martin - What have your experts (disability advocates) accomplished in this instance? Instill more people with the idea that they Are whiners? Create an unpleasant situation for unknowing citizens only bent on a few pleasant hours during a warm Sat. evening? What, in your opinion, is it about the ADA that that makes it so difficult for we laymen to understand? We know that in some cases the one size for all rules of the ADA have made life more difficult for some disabled. We know over 1M$ was spent making curbs in the city accessible and that until recently, motorized wheelchairs were being driven in the middle of our streets, even in the business district. If my complaints to Police and Councilman enabled Ms. Wehmeier to put an end to this potentially deadly practice, then I am indebted to her.

Frankly, your plea for "experts" to advise we poor masses of what we should think, smacks of a condition now commonly known as "elitist".

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 17, 2011 | 3:09 p.m.

Frank, quoting what the Trib or Missourian prints as "legal advice" will get you laughed out of the courtroom.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 17, 2011 | 3:19 p.m.

Another way of saying what I said in my first post; I am more than willing to help but if you get in my face and start sounding the least bit shrill, I will walk away!!

If I should happen to fall down and someone comes along offering help for me to get up, they are appreciated. But if another kind of person should come along and start going on about how we should sue the City and protest,(even though it was my feet that got entangled together), I don't want those kind of people to touch me. Just go away!!!

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 17, 2011 | 3:55 p.m.

Harold,

Regarding the second paragraph of your post (immediately above), I agree. The right to legal recourse is one thing but unwanted solicitation is something else.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 17, 2011 | 5:53 p.m.

It is beginning to appear that a consensus is building among a group that are in favor of punishing the City of Columbia for various reasons; My suggestions as follows-

1) Form an ad hoc committee of likeminded citizens--
2) Find a lawyer who speciallizes in class action lawsuits-
3) Bring suit against the City of
Columbia and the Dinning car company--
4) The lawyer gets half, expenses and court fees get some,
and the class action plaintiffs divide up a few bucks.

The Dinning cars go back up north where they came from, and the City of Columbia pays for removal of the parking and ADA renovations that were done at the train station.

(Report Comment)
Mike Martin July 17, 2011 | 6:34 p.m.

"Dinning" cars? Looks like we need some spelling experts here, too.

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 17, 2011 | 8:22 p.m.

Aw gee, MikeM. Harold's "give 'em the finger" finger prolly just had multiple temporary spasms on the "d". Hhappenss to mme all the ttime.

Afterr all, he spellled consensus, ad hoc, and plaintiffs jusst finne.

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 18, 2011 | 6:28 a.m.

Harold, Michael and Frank:

Let's assign $10 per word to all the verbiage thus far attributed to this subject.

Then let's use that money to buy tickets for truly disadvantaged citizens of Columbia for rides and dinners.

Lawyers can buy their own tickets.

If verbiage were diesel fuel, we could run this train to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 18, 2011 | 6:36 a.m.

Hey! One last Question! How many of the protesters had purchased a meal trip ticket and were turned back?

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 18, 2011 | 7:06 a.m.

Ellis - $10 per word? Are you the owner of a corporate jet? 10 cents per word on this subject would get the train to Albuquerque, and back!

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith July 18, 2011 | 7:49 a.m.

@ Frank Christian:

I' decided to handle the dollars on the same SCALE our federal government does. Gotta think BIG, Frank. :)

The jet is being serviced in Wichita, Kansas.

True story. A long time ago (my wife was still alive) there was a situation where drill core mineral samples were flown in from Venezuela for analysis. Time was a big consideration. A corporate jet, Venezuelan registry, was used. They flew the plane from Caracas to Wichita, where the samples were off loaded and trucked the remaining distance.

On a visit with the pilot I found that while he stopped in Houston, customs was sending him through WITHOUT INSPECTION. He informed me that he and U. S. Customs were "good friends." Hmmmmm!

Question: Was anything removed from those sample bags at Wichita? The pilot couldn't understand why everyone was excited.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 18, 2011 | 8:26 a.m.

Well, I must assume that there were no tickets purchased that were then turned away.

The parking was there, the potty room was there, the ramp was there, yet none actually came that were turned away.

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 18, 2011 | 9:57 a.m.

And what if they take a collection and have one, just one, person ride the dinner train this coming weekend who is unable to board?

(Report Comment)
sally willis July 18, 2011 | 2:03 p.m.

When I rode the train in Jeff City I didn't see any wheelchair accessibility, it might have been an oversight on my part, but I also didn't see any protesters. I'm might be wrong for sayign this but if your in a wheelchair this might not be the activity for you. Just like opra might not be the activity for a person who is mute. There are a million other things to do maybe protesting is just another fun thing for these people to do.

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 18, 2011 | 4:26 p.m.

Gee Sally, I guess we're lucky that quite a bit of opera is subtitled for those of us who don't speak Italian, eh?

(Report Comment)
Ricky Gurley July 18, 2011 | 5:59 p.m.

Tell ya how I see this.......
If the people with disabilities feel like there is a problem with accessibility for people with disabilities on this train then they have the same recourse that everyone else has; find an attorney and pursue a civil action.

Short of doing that, legally there is no grievance; unless D.O.J. wants to step in.

I am not sure that people with disabilities want us to treat them different than anyone else, anyway. I am not sure that these people with disabilities want to be "coddled" on this issue. Most of them want to be treated like everyone else in society. So, let's leave it to them to pursue a proper remedy like everyone else in society has to do.

I think that the appropriate place for this issue is in the courts. I don't think that a bunch of "dime-store attorneys" with no law degrees, that have never even seen a trial outside of Court TV should be trying to second guess the legalities of this issue.

Sometimes I wish that I could reveal some of the things that I discover in the course of my work that are protected by a confidentiality clause in my contracts. There are a lot of "dipstick, wannabe, detectives", with no P.I. Licenses out there conducting there own brand of investigations that have no idea what they are doing; that simply settle on guesswork for proper investigative work. HOPEFULLY, if I get the "go-ahead" in the next week I'll be bringing one of those cases to the public; but I do have to get permission from my client to do so.

The Missouri Revised Statutes are clear on what constitutes conducting private investigations without a license:

Missouri Revised Statutes

Chapter 324
Occupations and Professions General Provisions
Section 324.1104

Prohibited acts.
324.1104. Unless expressly exempted from the provisions of sections 324.1100 to 324.1148:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to engage in the private investigator business in this state unless such person is licensed as a private investigator under sections 324.1100 to 324.1148;

(2) It shall be unlawful for any person to engage in business in this state as a private investigator agency unless such person is licensed under sections 324.1100 to 324.1148.

Missouri Revised Statutes

Chapter 324
Occupations and Professions General Provisions
Section 324.1100

(11) "Private investigator business", the furnishing of, making of, or agreeing to make, any investigation for the purpose of obtaining information pertaining to:

(b) The identity, habits, conduct, business, occupation, honesty, integrity, credibility, knowledge, trustworthiness, efficiency, loyalty, activity, movement, whereabouts, affiliations, associations, transactions, acts, reputation, or character of any person;

And yet we have a person violating this statute all of the time with their "blog"....

Ricky B. Gurley.

RMRI, inc.
http://www.rmriinc.com
(573) 529-4476

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 19, 2011 | 11:38 a.m.

Amazing!!!! Of all the opinions and comments expressed on this site/subject, none answered my question if any meal trip ticket holders were turned back because they could not get into the Dining cars.

And that should the entire and only issue here.

(Report Comment)
Tim Dance July 19, 2011 | 4:11 p.m.

@ Harold:

The reason why nobody answered your question is because it is a silly one. Why would somebody buy a ticket if they knew they couldn't be accommodated.

Since the owner of this dinner train is receiving welfare, when will they submit to a drug test?

@everybody:

This was effective, just look at the press coverage and very large thread the article produced.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 19, 2011 | 8:52 p.m.

Tim Dance--- Very seldom in my years of being a teacher and instructor have I heard "silly" questions except from the occasional smart mouth who wants attention. But I have received a lot of stupid answers.

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 19, 2011 | 9:44 p.m.

Rick - Did you read doj (small caps due to the protection they are affording the people under this administration)vs Quicktrip? This lawsuit filed by the DOJ was in response to complaint of Two customers? claiming they were not afforded disabled parking in Omaha NE. Do you not suppose they claimed a refusal of services? This action cost Quicktrip initially 1.5M$ just in a deposit to assure their intent to comply nation wide. (your link) I have a clipping from sometime ago forcing Dennys Restaurants to set aside 4M$ in a fund for any Hispanic who might claim that he/she was discriminated against in regard to a hiring application. I have posted the instance of a visit by wife and I to a beach access point east of Cape Cod, MA. One snack building some restroom facilities and possibly 20 marked parking places, more than 1/2 marked for disabled. The access to beach was a 20+ ft sandy trail down the bluff overlooking the ocean. Healthy wife declined the climb down, then up.

"Extremist attitude" is from you, not I or anyone else I can recall. Could the term be attached to one crying "Dinner Train compliance!" without any mention of the expense to the new business we are discussing? Now, if I was discussing this subject with a liberal, the attitude might be accounted for, since expense is never a consideration. It may be helping a veteran! So then?

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 19, 2011 | 9:55 p.m.

Harold, you may not have heard any silly questions, but you sure typed one.

(Report Comment)
Ricky Gurley July 19, 2011 | 10:37 p.m.

Frank,

Huh? Did I miss something? I know that your last post is some kind of a response to my post before that, but I am not sure that it is a logical response to my post before the one in question.....

You just keep giving "excuses" for why things should be as they are, when in reality your "excuses" don't even come into play in a legal sense. Expense? Is that the reason you are giving that for the Columbia Star Dinner Train not being in legal compliance, and thereby effectively violating a federal law? Really? So, if it costs too much for me to fence in my backyard so that I can keep my vicious Doberman from harming someone, I can let him go out and attack whoever just happens to be in his vicinity? If it costs too much for me to get my car inspected, I can drive a road hazard up and down the highways? Really?

Look at the arguments you are posing, Frank. They get more ridiculous with each post.....

Yeah, the Dinner Train should in fact be in compliance with the ADA; why not? Quick Trip has to be. Not having a parking space is NOT a refusal of service, Frank. You only make my point each time you post too. These people could have parked 100 feet away from the store and still have been served. But it is UNREASONABLE for a person with a disability that puts them in a wheelchair to have to do that. The same scenario applies for the Dinner Train, nobody is going to refuse to let a person with a disability that makes a reservation and pays for a seat on the Dinner Train; but if they are not capable of receiving the service due to a disability, that the Dinner Train is LEGALLY BOUND to accommodate then then what difference does a refusal of service or a granting of service make one way or another, Frank?

So, you are in favor of saving money at the expense of our laws? Is that it now, Frank? As long as we can show that we can't afford to follow the law, we can break the law? Makes perfect sense, Frank... Your reasoning is far more "advanced" than mine, I suppose......

Ricky B. Gurley.

RMRI, Inc.
http://www.rmriinc.com
(573) 529-4476

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 20, 2011 | 7:49 a.m.

Ricky and his now liberal rant. Nice try, but no cigar. No, if you can;t afford a fence as required by law, you don't allow the dog to run free. You get rid of the dog and don't drive the car! To try once more to obtain an acknowledgement from you. The train cannot afford the expense of compliance. If forced into it, making the venture unprofitable, they will remove the train as stated by our Mayor. Try this, the Dinner Train to Centralia will go out of business!

Everyone else on earth has to comply with the "laws of their budget". If cannot afford to pay, cannot afford the action. You and the liberals know that our Federal Gov't. is only entity that can print or borrow whatever funds they require to build a heaven on earth for whichever of their protected groups they choose to pander to in any given instance. The sky is the limit! As a D' staffer has stated, "It's government money. It isn't as if it belongs to someone." And then, you. "So, you are in favor of saving money at the expense of our laws?" Yes, Rick, in the real world everyone has to save money. In yours, it is the uncontrolled spending as well as the laws enacted to allow the spending that are destroying our Nation.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 20, 2011 | 8:22 a.m.

John-- Once again, I get an evasive non-answer to my """silly""" question. It was a question that only requires a "yes" or "no" type of answer. In this case it only requires a simple one word answer; - either "none" or a number type word from "one" to "fourteen". One word; thats all!

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 20, 2011 | 10:56 a.m.

So if I pony up the $69 for a disabled person in a wheelchair to go on the dinner train and that person isn't able to access what they've paid for, will you cease and desist with this stupid avenue of logic? Set the wayback machine to the 1960, replace disabled with black, and let me know how enlightened your argument is.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 20, 2011 | 11:08 a.m.

John-- 0 to 14 - still a simple one word answer is all that I requested.

Not an evasive "what if?"non-answer.

(Report Comment)
John Hinten July 20, 2011 | 11:29 a.m.

For those of you babbling on without a clue what the ADA states ...

http://www.ada.gov/reg3a.html#Anchor-114...

Most of the comments are so inane, a rebuttal is a waste of time.

my favorite quote comes to mind; "Of all the disabilities we may possess, the most difficult to overcome is the ignorance of society."

Have a good day and stay cool in this heatwave.

John

(Report Comment)
Richard Saunders July 20, 2011 | 11:38 a.m.

Nice to see so many fight over stolen loot. Divide and conquer is alive and well here, I see.

Dear moralizers of all stripes,

Taxation is theft.

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 20, 2011 | 12:41 p.m.

Harold, look at the last picture on this story and reflect on how utterly vapid your question is.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 20, 2011 | 12:59 p.m.

0 to 14!!!!!! still no answer. If you don't know, you could have just said so. The question was about what did happen as opposed to your "what-if" hyposis.

(Report Comment)
Tim Dance July 20, 2011 | 2:39 p.m.

@ John, let me entertain Harold's inane question....

@ Harold, the answer you seek is "no"

No one was turned away because people with disabilities are not stupid enough to buy a ticket on a train that would not accommodate them. I don't need to touch fire to know it is hot, therefore if it is common knowledge that the train wouldn't accommodate a wheelchair, why would they make a reservation? I answered your question Harold, answer mine.

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 20, 2011 | 2:55 p.m.

Thank you. I assumed the answer was none yet there could still be possibility.

Now to answer your question. There were no reservations made because they were just there to draw attention.

As to wheelchairs not being allowed on a dining car, I have seen a few in my past. Was there a posting somewhere that said "Wheelchairs not allowed"? No!!

Somewhere there was information that the dining cars were not ADA compliant yet nowhere was there a guard type person denying entry.

(Report Comment)
Rob Weir July 20, 2011 | 3:15 p.m.

Mr. Williams: I was out of town when this story was originally written, but we're actually planning to have a story in next week's Vox magazine about the dining experience on the train. We have a reporter and photographer involved.
--
Rob Weir
Director of digital development, The Columbia Missourian
Executive editor, Vox magazine
207 Lee Hills Hall
Columbia, MO 65211
(573) 882-5057
WeirR(at)missouri.edu

(Report Comment)
John Hinten July 20, 2011 | 3:18 p.m.

"As to wheelchairs not being allowed on a dining car, I have seen a few in my past. Was there a posting somewhere that said "Wheelchairs not allowed"? No!!

Somewhere there was information that the dining cars were not ADA compliant yet nowhere was there a guard type person denying entry."

Actually at the meeting on 7 July (had you bothered to attend you would know this already) the representative for the Columbia Star Dinner Train stated specifically the train does not accommodate wheelchairs due to a 20" door, aisles less than 24" and no lift to get to the door ... so yes they did specifically deny wheelchair users entry.

thank you for playing

John

(Report Comment)
Ricky Gurley July 20, 2011 | 3:39 p.m.

Well I have seen ignorance in my time, but this thread brings it under a whole new definition.....

Why would anyone make a reservation for a service and pay for that reservation, if they could not take advantage of it?

And if that company that is offering a service that you have to reserve is legally bound to make it available to people with disabilities is refusing to accommodate these people, why would these people even want to pick up the phone and call to make and pay for such a reservation?

I am just thankful that at least two (2) complaints have already been filed with the D.O.J. about this issue, and that the D.O.J. are no investigating it. So, either my suggestion had the desired effect here, or there was someone out there (not on this thread) that is at least as smart as I am! LMAO!

Now that the D.O.J. has been sent these complaints, and are investigating this issue, I can untangle myself from this ignorance and move on to a more interesting thread.

Happy days are here again!

Good day.

Ricky B. Gurley

RMRI, Inc.
http://www.rmriinc.com
(573) 529-4476

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 20, 2011 | 3:40 p.m.

john hinton - Was the following what you thought we "babblers" ought to read from ADA?

"(b) Barrier removal. A public accommodation subject to this section shall remove transportation barriers in existing vehicles and rail passenger cars used for transporting individuals (not including barriers that can only be removed through the retrofitting of vehicles or rail passenger cars by the installation of a hydraulic or other lift) where such removal is readily achievable."

Or what was your point?

(Report Comment)
Tim Dance July 20, 2011 | 3:55 p.m.

@ Harold

Yes they were there to draw attention. However, only an imbecile would buy a ticket on a train they knew they can't board. So your conclusion lacks common sense. The owners of this dinner train is a corporate welfare recipient and I expect that they will be tested for drugs soon. I find it puzzling that the conservatives on this thread have no problem critizing government interference and subsidizies when it comes to people of low means wanting assistance, but
have no problem when it is given to the rich and already wealthy. There is a special place in Dante's hell for hypocrites. :)

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 20, 2011 | 4:49 p.m.

Wow!!! $65,000.00 in welfare. And drugs!
Was it all part of the stimulus money program?
Was that a "liberal" project?

(Report Comment)
Tim Dance July 20, 2011 | 5:02 p.m.

Sorry welfare is welfare. I expect the drug testing to commence soon. :)

(Report Comment)
John Schultz July 20, 2011 | 5:35 p.m.

Harold, why would the folks in wheelchairs buy a ticket when the train's FAQ states this:

Is the dinner train handicap accessible? (Arrival and Boarding)
The Columbia Star Dinner Train cars were constructed in the 1930’s and therefore are not handicap accessible. Guests who require special assistance are required to inform the reservation or ticket agent at time of reservation.

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 20, 2011 | 6:25 p.m.

JohnS...."Guests who require special assistance are required to inform the reservation or ticket agent at time of reservation."
________________________

I don't know what this sentence means. Perhaps someone else does. Does it mean that regardless of the special assistance you need, we'll get you into a seat on the train? Or does it mean "We need to know because we may have to turn you down?" I don't know.

But perhaps these thoughts illustrate Harold's question isn't so far-fetched after all.

Just how far can/will the owners/operators/employees go to accommodate folks?

(Report Comment)
Harold Sutton July 20, 2011 | 6:31 p.m.

So Tim; - Being as you referenced to Welfare in this situation and you continue to imply disdain for my obviously inferior inteligence, would you answer this question;
How much in dollars comes into the city of Columbia as welfare for individuals?

SS is not welfare for most of us; Its earned retirement and there are a number of individuals who became disabled. I am asking about welfare such as subsidized housing, food stamps, and those who won't earn any income.

I doubt that you will give an simple dollar answer; You seem to be more inclined to use an attitude of intelectual superiority. And I have already said that I must be of inferior intelligence.

(Report Comment)
Ricky Gurley July 20, 2011 | 7:42 p.m.

Mike says: "Just how far can/will the owners/operators/employees go to accommodate folks?"

----------------------------------------

Well Mike, make a reservation, tell them you are in a wheelchair, see if they'll let you purchase a ticket, and if they do; show up and see if they'll carry you from the platform to your seat. LMAO!

But.. Just in case they do accommodate you, make note that some people just don't like to be "handled" by other people....

Ricky B. Gurley.

RMRI, Inc.
http://www.rmriinc.com
(573) 529-4476

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 20, 2011 | 8:42 p.m.

Ricky B. Gurley
RMRI, etc.

You have spent a lot of time and a lot more words telling the world that there is no need to "show up and see if they'll carry you from the platform to your seat." According to you the best bet to shut the train down is just complain to Eric Holder, then wait. I bet your typo, "the D.O.J. are no investigating it.", is more accurate than you intend. Give us your expert opinion on the meaning of the passage from ADA that I posted for John Hinten at 3:40p. Just noticed that I misspelled his name in that post. I had given up on a response, but he will probably be forthcoming now that he knows to whom I am referring. Hows that Mike?

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 20, 2011 | 9:36 p.m.

Frank: Protesting is a time-honored activity. I have no problems with it, including this one. I also have no philosophical problem with activism of any stripe, but I will say that such a thing is very political and very tricky regardless of who is doing it and what the ultimate goal is. By that I mean this: There is a very fine human line with these activities; you can alienate those whose support you desire. It requires finesse to attain the goal without alienating folks now...or for any future activities the same organization may attempt. Scorched-earth policies may make one feel smug, righteous, and virtuous, but it's easy to win a battle but lose a war. Real easy.

Public relations is fraught with difficulty.

I have no idea what will happen in this case. I have no idea if someone will sue. I have no idea if the train will survive or fold for ANY reason. I have no idea if the community will support the train with its cash and time. It is my hope that it succeeds beyond all expectations and justifies its continued existence via significant tax revenues, employment of our citizens, and entertainment for ALL who desire it and are willing to pay.

I have patience and apparently so does the city of Columbia.

We'll see.

(Report Comment)
Ricky Gurley July 21, 2011 | 2:13 a.m.

Frank,

Sorry about the spelling error, it just gets hard to keep an eye on each word when the ignorance is so thick and heavy that reading and responding here actually gets boring.... Don't be so hard on yourself about spelling errors either, Frank; I am sure from your side of the fence you could very well feel the same way.. Of course though; ignorant people don't know they are ignorant, if they did then they would not be ignorant. As a matter of fact Frank, I'd say that some of the most ignorant people I know usually believe they are the smartest guys in the room. Until someone (like me) shows them just how ignorant they are (work related comment, blah, blah, blah, I am sure you don't want me to recite incidents from my work where I have actually shown people just how ignorant they are; you'd probably call it "advertising").

D.O.J. Website Quote:

"The Disability Rights Section will consider your complaint and inform you of its action. The office will investigate the complaint and determine whether to begin litigation. We will not necessarily make a determination on each complaint about whether or not there is an ADA violation. If we believe there is a pattern or practice of discrimination or the complaint raises an issue of general public importance, we may attempt to negotiate a settlement of the matter or we may bring an action in U.S. District Court. Any such action would be taken on behalf of the Unites States. We do not act as an attorney for, or representative of, the complainant."
http://www.ada.gov/t3compfm.htm

The D.O.J. WILL investigate. They are obligated to. An A.D.A. violation is considered a Civil Rights Violation; that is the section the A.D.A. is listed under and that is the department of the D.O.J. that investigates A.D.A. violations.

The D.O.J. obligates itself to investigate with this sentence: "The office will investigate the complaint and determine whether to begin litigation." This does not mean the D.O.J. is going to do anything other than investigate.

The entire time, my point has been pretty simple. And you Frank hav missed it, but you are on "that side of the fence".... My point has been: "Submit your complaint to the proper authority, let that proper authority decide what to do, and then let the chips fall where they may." No fuss, no muss, everybody can just breathe a little easier and see what the EXPERTS have to say about it (yes that’s right Frank the D.O.J. Attorneys would be the experts in this case).

All I have asked anyone to do is simply make the D.O.J. aware of the situation. You are the one that is advocating that the Columbia Star Dinner Train be shut down; if I have read all of your posts correctly.... Your idea stifles business, mine just simply asks that this business be made to play by the same set of rules as all other businesses have to play by.

Ricky B. Gurley.

RMRI, Inc.
http://www.rmriinc.com
(573) 529-4476

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 21, 2011 | 8:07 a.m.

Rick - I should leave this right here, but as stated, "something inside me ....". I called your "spelling error" what it was, a typo. In your reference to spelling error, I got 10 lines of rhetoric about You. Not "advertising", but Boring.

"The entire time, my point has been pretty simple. And you Frank hav missed it, but you are on "that side of the fence".... My point has been: "Submit your complaint to the proper authority, let that proper authority decide what to do, and then let the chips fall where they may."
I have missed nothing in your posts. You entered the conversation late and to show your knowledge an expertise, you immediately recommended litigation, a last resort in any business dispute. If you believe bringing in Federal Gov't would make everyone "just breathe a little easier", you would be the most ignorant one in any room. That I advocate the Train be shut down is a false statement. I see no requested translation of the ADA passage concerning "Barrier removal".

(Report Comment)
frank christian July 21, 2011 | 8:42 a.m.

Mike - There has been much conversation about the start of a relatively insignificant new business in our city. I agree "Public relations is fraught with difficulty.",and after it all am satisfied with my original sentence.

"This "protest" in my opinion, is the worst waste of time and effort for disabled rights that might be imagined."

My call to you (after the post I thought I should have more clear) was for you to pass on my improved? grammar.

(Report Comment)
John Hinten July 21, 2011 | 8:44 a.m.

Just in case anyone thinks "carrying" a wheelchair user is a viable accommodation ...

“II-5.2000 Methods for providing program accessibility - Is carrying an individual with a disability considered an acceptable method of achieving program access?

Generally, it is not. Carrying persons with mobility impairments to provide program accessibility is permitted in only two cases. First, when accessibility in existing facilities can be achieved only through structural alterations (that is, physical changes to the facilities), carrying may serve as a temporary expedient until construction is completed. Second, carrying is permitted in manifestly exceptional cases if (a) carriers are formally instructed on the safest and least humiliating means of carrying and (b) the service is provided in a reliable manner. Carrying is contrary to the goal of providing accessible programs, which is to foster independence.” *

and another source quoted “…It is just as inappropriate to expect other passengers to lift a wheelchair user into a vehicle as it is to assume others should lift a wheelchair over a curb or carry someone up a flight of stairs to enter a building...” **

*ADA Technical Assistance Manual

** www.access-board.gov

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams July 21, 2011 | 8:55 a.m.

Frank: No, I have no further comments on your punctuation. I have enuf trouble of my own; semicolons and colons are worrisome....to capitalize after the punctuation, or not capitalize after the punctuation, that is the question (lol).

JohnHinten: Yes, I'm aware it would be difficult/improper to try and carry someone in a wheelchair. My question concerned other forms of disabilities that might be accommodated. I'm assuming that the "protest" was for ALL folks that are disabled rather than those confined to a wheelchair.

Maybe I'm wrong and the protest was more narrowly focused than I originally thought.

(Report Comment)
Ricky Gurley July 21, 2011 | 12:20 p.m.

Frank Christian: "Rick - I should leave this right here, but as stated, "something inside me ....". I called your "spelling error" what it was, a typo. In your reference to spelling error, I got 10 lines of rhetoric about You. Not "advertising", but Boring."
---------------------------------------------

Well if you want more, you are just going to have to read my blog, Frank! LOL.

Ricky B. Gurley.

RMRI, Inc.
http://www.rmriinc.com
(573) 529-4476

(Report Comment)
Tim Dance July 22, 2011 | 10:26 a.m.

If not buying a ticket on a train you can't board is considered being intellectually superior, I feel sorry about the people you "educated"

(Report Comment)
Tim Dance July 22, 2011 | 10:28 a.m.

and I never mentioned Social Security. I know SS is social insurance. I was talking about the hand-out this train owner received. Stop beating up the straw-man Harold.

(Report Comment)

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