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Speaker brings understanding of Islamic law, humor to presentation at MU

Friday, October 28, 2011 | 2:04 p.m. CDT
Haroon Moghul speaks at Memorial Union on Thursday night as part of MU's Muslim Student Organization's Islam Awareness Week. Moghul, who served as the director of public relations at the Islamic Center at New York University from 2007 to 2009, spoke about Islamic culture and Shariah law.

COLUMBIA — You notice his energy first. Then, the humor. And yes, the sarcasm and hyperbole make their way in soon after.

But Haroon Moghul warned the audience in MU's Memorial Union that they were in for a lecture.

“Because the one thing you want to do on a Thursday night after your classes is attend another class,” Moghul said.

To an audience of mostly students, some fulfilling class credit, the joke resonated.

More than 150 people filled the room and spilled into the hallway to hear the keynote address for Islam Awareness Week, put on by MU’s Muslim Student Organization. His lecture gave a condensed lesson on what Shariah means, in hopes of dispelling misconceptions about the codified set of laws based on the Islamic religion.

He called it one of the most complicated topics in the world and made light of the fact he had only 45 minutes to teach it. He told the audience although he would fail to cover all of the nuances of Shariah, he would “hit all of the bases.”

Moghul is one of 300 global Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow, and he is a contributor to the Huffington Post, as well as Religion Dispatches. Moghul is The Maydan Institute's executive director. The group, according to Moghul's blog, Avari, works to improve relationships and communication between Muslims and the West.

Conflict between cultures

Muslim Student Organization vice president Mahir Khan explained that in the last few years, Shariah has become taboo, especially in the political arena. Legislation in several states has been introduced that would ban Shariah, among other foreign laws.

In spring 2011, two bills were introduced into the Missouri Statehouse that would ban foreign law in state courts. One targeted Shariah law specifically.

These bills prompted the American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri Muslim Rights Task Force to gather last spring in Jefferson City, and increase Muslim participation in the legislative process.

Khan said the bills, which never became law, were introduced because of fears that Islamic beliefs would invade public policy. He further said that in order to understand Shariah law, it must be thought about in a modern context and used Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population, as an example. Voters there elected a woman as president from 2001 to 2004.

“If you go into it word for word, some laws violate human rights, so you have to take it in context of where and when it was first written. Most countries that have a significant Muslim population apply [it] differently,” Khan said.

Aspects of Shariah law

Moghul asked for a pen and held it up above his head.

He promptly dropped it. 

“The pen, to the Muslim perception, is Muslim,” he said.

He said that the pen had no choice but to obey God's laws of the universe. The only thing in the physical world that doesn't have to obey is humankind, he said. People are put on the earth to willingly submit to God, unlike the rest of the world.

“The way that God communicates this is through revelation," Moghul said. "People were chosen as prophets to communicate the message ... The final messenger is Muhammad, peace be upon Him.”

Muslims rely on two sources of guidance:

  • The Quran, which, in the Muslim belief, is God’s revelation to humankind through Muhammad.
  • The morals, life circumstances, character and actions of Muhammad, along with what he approves or disapproves of.

These two things together are Shariah, which literally means in Arabic, “the path to the water.”

This law is divided into two spheres: Acts of worship and worldly affairs. Acts of worship are like sacred law, and acts of worldly affairs are like secular ones. An act is a worldly affair in Islamic law if you can determine the legal reasoning behind a judgment. But, if it falls under an act of worship, it is beyond human comprehension.

In the Islamic tradition, Muslims pray five times a day.There is no definitive legal reasoning for this number, Moghul said, so it is a sacred matter and an instruction from God.

He said most Muslims don’t care about Shariah in the sense of a political agenda.

"What they care about, when they talk about Shariah, is following their religion," Moghul said. "Now, the question of whether a religious law should become political law in the United States is a completely different question ... I would argue that there are no grounds for it."

Community Response

Over the course of four days, a single post from the Mizzou Facebook page garnered 100 “likes,” 11 shares and nearly 150 comments, both heralding and lambasting Islam Awareness Week’s events.

Several comments were removed from the thread, as pointed out by users questioning MU’s policy on social media comments.

Plenty of opinionated comments remained on the page, with several users posting that the terrorist attacks from Sept. 11 were “enough Islam for me” and that the Muslim faith is “dangerous.”

Arwa Abdelhadi, a member of the Muslim Student Organization, said that she had mixed feelings about the posts, but ultimately decided that it was mostly positive because it gave a driving force behind efforts to educate through Islam Awareness Week.

Khan, the student organization vice president, pored over the posts for several hours and decided that it doesn't matter what you believe in, as long as you have an open mind. He wrote, in a Facebook post as part of the discussion, that the point of the week is to educate people and instill that understanding of others' beliefs.

"These are the values that the Columbia Muslim community has been built on, and these are the values that this great nation is built on as well," he wrote. "I ask all of you, what is more American than that?”


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Comments

mike mentor October 28, 2011 | 4:32 p.m.

Bringing a previous discussion back up again here... It seems as though the liberal progressives want to "except and understand" other cultures regardless of their interpretation of Shariah. American liberals hate the extreme right wing Christians with a passion, yet want to accept the extreme right wing Islamists. Go figure...

I think most of us have some qualifications before we can accept or understand. We will not understand the public stoning of a woman who chose to wear shorts. We will not accept the killing of a son or daughter who behaves in a way that "brings shame" the family. These are real issues with east meets west. I think the single thing that could most positively impact these relations is for the moderate Islamists to call out the extremists with a louder voice and distance themselves from these extremists. Until that happens on a more consistant basis, there will be no acceptance I'm afraid...

(Report Comment)
Ryan Gavin October 28, 2011 | 7:07 p.m.

It's accept, not except, and you could probably learn a bit about the former.

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith October 28, 2011 | 10:26 p.m.

Time to lighten this up.

Maysoon Zayid, who does stand up comedy here in the United States (she was born and raised in New Jersey) says that if she ever marries she isn't going to gently toss her bridal bouquet over her shoulder.

She's going to face the wedding guests and throw her bouquet directly at them as hard as she can.

Why?

Everyone knows the Palestinians' habit of throwing things.

MU gets these interesting people to come to Columbia and speak. They should approach Maysoon.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking October 29, 2011 | 3:33 a.m.

mike mentor wrote:

"I think the single thing that could most positively impact these relations is for the moderate Islamists to call out the extremists with a louder voice and distance themselves from these extremists."

Well, I'm not hearing a lot of Baptists calling out the Westboro folks, or condemning the people that kill abortion doctors and burn clinics.

There are extramists in every religion. That does not mean they are in any way typical of the religion as a whole.

DK

(Report Comment)
mike mentor October 31, 2011 | 11:14 a.m.

@Ryan
1. oops
2. How am I supposed to better understand the killing of a woman for wearing shorts or the killing of a child for acting in a way that brings shame to a family? According to you I lack and need to learn acceptance for this. Please enlighten me oh progressive one...

@Mark
Uhhhh... I guess you aren't listening then. Please attend any house of worship with a decent size congregation in all of Boone County and you will not find a single preacher that supports the Westboro folks or supports terrorist acts against clinics. When the Westboro folks have somehow managed to make news, there is uniform condemnation from all of the houses of worship around here. All of them. It's attitudes like yours that keep people apart. You hold so tight to a progressive agenda that you fail to see the forest around you. Go find yourself some Jihadists to befriend. They are looking for people who are easily manipulated, don't care about the truth, and will stubbornly support an agenda. As for those of us that are looking towards acceptance of other peoples and other religions, we are tring to learn about the good and the bad in each so we don't lump them all together unfairly...

(Report Comment)
Phyllis Cormack October 31, 2011 | 12:26 p.m.

"They are looking for people who are easily manipulated, don't care about the truth, and will stubbornly support an agenda. As for those of us that are looking towards acceptance of other peoples and other religions, we are tring to learn about the good and the bad in each so we don't lump them all together unfairly..."

After reading what you just said, it sounds like you are the one that "they" are looking for. Why all the lumping?

(Report Comment)
mike mentor October 31, 2011 | 4:01 p.m.

@Phyllis
um... o.k. I will take you at face value and assume you are honestly asking me why people get lumped in with a group of people that they share some, but not all, characteristics...

Websters says...

preconceived judgment or opinion : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge : an instance of such judgment or opinion : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Wiki says...

making a judgment or assumption about someone or something before having enough knowledge to be able to do so with guaranteed accuracy, or "judging a book by its cover". It also means beliefs without knowledge of the facts[1] and may include "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence."[2]

_________________________________________________________

Yes, I know... Things shouldn't be this way, but they are. If you don't want to be this way yourself then I challenge you to quest for knowledge as I have done and will continue to do. The knowledge you gain will help you to make more informed decisions about other people of other religions.
However, you may be more comfortable in your ignorance, feeling good about yourself because you are accepting of everybody. That is your choice.

I choose to not accept people that kill rape victims, gay people, or their own daughters who choose to wear western style clothes or gasp, get an education or a job... I want to know why this happens. How can anyone support this? In the case of our progressives who hate the religious right with a passion, but accept the Islamic right because it makes them feel superior because they are better "accepters", I would have to say the cause is ignorance, but I may be wrong. Still questing...

(Report Comment)
Phyllis Cormack October 31, 2011 | 4:28 p.m.

Have you really? Are you really? Then maybe you should have attended the event because you could have asked the speaker how many people he knows who killed a family member or anyone else for those said transgressions.

But I don't think you are.

You just want to ridicule and marginalize. It's your way.

(Report Comment)
mike mentor October 31, 2011 | 5:24 p.m.

I am.
This issue hit me in the face as a high school student. I knew a girl who was held down by her mother and repeatedly stabbed by her father until she was dead because she went and got a job without their permission. This was not her only transgression, just the straw that broke the camels back. She had previously worn western style clothes and listened to western style music.
Was this seen as a dispicable and horrific act by everyone I knew personally?
yes!
Was her family ostracized or condemmed by their Mosque?
No.
I see that as a problem.
just sayin...

(Report Comment)
Phyllis Cormack October 31, 2011 | 5:42 p.m.

I so disbelieve what you are just sayin'.

The family would have been charged with murder and convicted.

You have no idea what would have been said at the mosque.

(Report Comment)
Derrick Fogle October 31, 2011 | 9:40 p.m.

Year, town, and school the two of you apparently attended together, so we can look it up and confirm, or I'm calling BS on that one, too.

These cases are very rare, and highly sensationalized when they happen. Almost everyone has *read* about them.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 1, 2011 | 7:23 a.m.

DF - "These cases are very rare, and highly sensationalized when they happen.".
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,15...

So, you have to have "been there" and seen it now? I doubt even that would Affect the liberal progressive attitude toward the opposite of any thing cherished by those of the Christian religion. Progressives are on the "other side of the looking glass", where "everything wrong is right and everything right is wrong" (Tammy Bruce, Death of Right and Wrong, Random House, 2003) They advocate government over any religion, but will defend any religion to the death, if it flies in the face of the hated Christians. What a bunch!.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking November 1, 2011 | 8:17 a.m.

Mike, what you're not separating here is the influence of culture on some of these actions that you're attributing to Islamic teaching. Some (in fact most) countries are not as gentle and accepting of differences as Western countries are. Many of these places it is still accptable to publicly stone and hang people, or inflict other corporal punishment (e. g. caning in Singapore).

This has nothing necessaarily to do with their religion. There are extremists and violent people in every religion, but that does not mean they're approved of or even common.

DK

PS, do you ever attend Muslim services, or even know any Muslims? You might find they are also not as accepting of the radicals that claim Allah as their inspiration.

DK

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 1, 2011 | 10:18 a.m.

Mark - "This has nothing necessaarily to do with their religion. There are extremists and violent people in every religion, but that does not mean they're approved of or even common." Then why haven't they changed this "culture" with their religion as the basis, as has been done (ended human slavery, promoted the sanctity of life above all, guaranteed freedom for all, etc.)in the case Jesus Christ and Christian Religion?

(Report Comment)
John Schultz November 1, 2011 | 11:15 a.m.

Well Frank, I sure am glad Jesus convinced all those nice Americans in the southern states that slavery was a bad thing.

(Report Comment)
Jack Hamm November 1, 2011 | 11:37 a.m.

"as has been done (ended human slavery, promoted the sanctity of life above all, guaranteed freedom for all, etc.)in the case Jesus Christ and Christian Religion?"

LMAO!!!! lolololol

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 1, 2011 | 12:28 p.m.

Shultz, Hamm - Sorry to offend. I know you guys think Karl Marx did all this.

(Report Comment)
Jack Hamm November 1, 2011 | 12:37 p.m.
This comment has been removed.
mike mentor November 1, 2011 | 1:14 p.m.

It happened in St Louis (sw county...) in 1989 (she was my sisters age in school, did not know her well...). Most of you probably did read about it and have forgotten. Her name was Palistina Isa and she went by Tina. She was a popular and outgoing girl. She had become too westernized for her parents and older siblings who harrassed her about everything. Her taking a part time job was the last straw. Her mother held her down while her father stabbed her multiple times. While she was begging for her life already having been stabbed her mother told her to shut up and her father told her to die quickly and put his foot over her mouth to shut her up.

We know all of this happened because the FBI was already investigating this guy as a terrorist and had the house bugged and all of this was taped.

The case was a major traumatic event for the police, prosecutors, and jury that had to listen to the tapes.

The father and mother were both convicted. Almost everybody was shocked by the tragedy. I say almost everyone because the people from her mosque came out defending the family as good hard working people that should be forgiven of this because it is "our" culture. I remember being glad that these people were not standing face to face with me at the time because then I might have had some legal troubles of my own. There were plenty of quotes in the papers from the mosque leaders about how the American system failed the Isa's because we failed to recognize their culture and that he was acting completely within the confines of appropriate behavior in their religion and we didn't get it. And so on, and so on.
Sorry to offend all of you progressives out there, but IMHO everyone that came to this couples defense is as guilty as they are. You can not stand on the fence with this kind of thing and play it both ways. You either call out the extremists and seperate yourself from them and their actions or you are condoning it and part of the problem.

This is where I am coming from.

(Report Comment)
John Schultz November 1, 2011 | 1:28 p.m.

Frank, please don't be so ridiculous in the future when your examples are proven wrong. Karl Marx? Seriously? I'm surprised you didn't bring up Tojo.

(Report Comment)
Justin Enson November 1, 2011 | 6:46 p.m.

You left out the part of the story that is below. I pulled this from Wikipedia, which is not a reference:

"Zein Isa was a member of the Abu Nidal Organization, which, at the time he murdered his daughter, was plotting to bomb the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C.. A crucial factor in his trial was that the FBI had bugged Zein's house in connection with his suspected terrorist activities, and had recorded Palestina's murder on an audio cassette. This was especially important in confirming that Maria was an active participant in the murder, and that Zein's claim of self-defense was unwarranted.

On December 20, 1991[3] both Zein and Maria Isa were convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to death. On April 1, 1993 Zein was indicted by the FBI in connection with his activities within Abu Nidal Organization, but the charges were dropped as he was already on death row."

It is not much wonder that there were people in his said mosque that were willing to defend his actions. It is also not much wonder that the lawyers who make up the Phelps family are willing to sue anyone their protesters encounter. Why did you not include the part about how their organization was plotting to blow up an embassy? Do you think all Muslims are plotting to blow up an embassy?

(Report Comment)
Tim Trayle November 1, 2011 | 6:57 p.m.

1. With regard to the Palestina Isa murder, the core issue concerns allegations of what mosque leaders did and didn't say. There's no doubt the murder happened, but we are asked to believe that mosque leaders did not condemn the killing, but instead excused it as quite appropriate to Muslim culture. I, for one, would need solid evidence of that.

2. We might also note that at indictment, gov't suggested that Palestina might have been killed because she posed a security risk to terrorist operations her father had in the works with colleagues in the Abu Nadal organization. Of course, this is still horrific, but if true, it works against the honor killing idea. I'm not sure what happened to that prosecutorial thread.

3. A sadder concern is that we begin this thread with discussion of the extraordinarily uncontroversial remarks of Haroon Moghu, speaker at MU, about tenets of Islam, and yet again end up in discussions about the "inherent" violence within Islam, none of which--according to our anti-Muslim Chicken Littles--is condemned by religious leaders.

4. And of course, we also get commie-baiting by FC--a clown-time bonus, if you will.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 2, 2011 | 7:07 a.m.

J Schultz - "please don't be so ridiculous in the future when your examples are proven wrong. Karl Marx? Seriously?"

No, I wasn't serious, but you coming out of the woodwork to slander the teachings of Jesus Christ, obviously were. Why? If Jesus (or Marx) were not the instigators in those changes in human behavior what was (here I go again), Climate Change? btw,"your examples are proven wrong". What proof?

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 2, 2011 | 8:16 a.m.

When one Google's "Muslim Honor Killings", reads of the cultural, religious, killings not only in Asia and Africa, but Europe and North America (immigrants), then returns here to read the attempts to condemn the practice, while defending the religion that practices, presumably because "we must all learn to get along", one realizes that America has truly been "dumbed down".

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 2, 2011 | 8:22 a.m.

@Justin
I didn't leave anything out. I said the reason we had all the tapes is because he was under FBI investigation for being a terrorist. If his lawyer defended him, fine, that's their job and a vital part of our justice system. If the rest of the individuals in his community defend him, not fine.
@Tim
The FBI had tapes and tapes of this guy and the rest of the family talking about how to get rid of Tina and for what reasons, (her situation became well known to the people in school when her family came to the jr prom that she attended even though they said not too and physically removed her from her jr prom...) but you know the real truth. Good for you. Along those same lines, this started with a post from me resuming a topic that was discussed in posts previously about the strange way that progressives will hate the religious right with a passion, but accept the Islamic right IMHO to prove to themselves that they are the superior acceptors. You provided an excellent example. Where is your evidence that what I have relayed is wrong? Do you honestly believe that you couldn't find out the truth if you wanted to look for a few minutes? There were newspapers and tv shows that covered this event. This was a huge deal. Yet you want to live in denial. Thank you for proving my point, I guess.
The story that the previous posts were under was a story about a woman who escaped from her life as a muslim. She had been subjected to all kinds of atrocities. If you want to look at my post history you will find that I am concerned about this topic. Probably because I saw how it played out as a teenager in St Louis.
IMHO if you are locking up your "wife" during the day or practicing any other kinds of objectification of women under the guise of culture or religion, you might as well be cutting up kittens to see how it feels before you move on to bigger and better victims. I for one will not bite my tongue when I see either.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking November 2, 2011 | 9:11 a.m.

mike mentor wrote:

"me resuming a topic that was discussed in posts previously about the strange way that progressives will hate the religious right with a passion, but accept the Islamic right IMHO to prove to themselves that they are the superior acceptors."

Well, our laws don't accept their behavior. Tina's parents were tried and sentenced to death. If any immigrant family wanted to live here, they have to live by our laws.

What's more important here is not whether such things happen (because the people doing them are from less advanced societies where they still have rather backward practices by our standards), but whether our laws will allow them to happen without consequences. The answer here is resoundingly "No". In no cases anyone has mentioned has the perpetrator not been punished. Furthermore, while we may disapprove of how people in other countries treat their citizens, it's also, quite frankly, not our business.

This is not a political issue. The issue here is whether, as some allege, Muslims are somehow going to force us all to follow Sharia law. That's ridiculous, and the stuff of demagogues.

DK

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 2, 2011 | 9:48 a.m.

Mark F. - "Well, our laws don't accept their behavior. Tina's parents were tried and sentenced to death. If any immigrant family wanted to live here, they have to live by our laws."

Which of our laws against bad behavior can be instituted before someone misbehaves? In most cases, I believe previous misbehavior cannot even be noted in the trial of an offender. Police action cannot be instituted until a physical attack on a person has been committed. Not a political issue, but somehow it seems again the conservatives wish to start at the source to prevent horrific crimes, while liberals show content to wait, then react. Which seems most ridiculous and demagogic?

(Report Comment)
John Schultz November 2, 2011 | 10:10 a.m.

Frank, contrary to your opinion, I was not slandering Jesus or His teachings, simply pointing out that a sizable portion of His followers in the early history of the US still thought slavery of another human was OK. Does that speak to the religion, the culture, or the individuals? I would say the latter two to some degree.

Not sure why you mentioned global warming in your last comment as I don't think I have addressed that lately...

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking November 2, 2011 | 10:46 a.m.

frank christian wrote:

"but somehow it seems again the conservatives wish to start at the source to prevent horrific crimes, while liberals show content to wait, then react."

You're assuming that these crimes, among Muslim expats living in Western countries, are common. They are not. Islam is not the problem. Backward medieval thinking is, and this is far more cultural than religious.

A parallel might be drawn on a secular level. We could stop a lot of crimes by preemptively locking up poor black kids who have dropped out of school and have little family life. Statistics show that this demographic commits violent crimes far in excess of their population percentage. Yet we can't deprive them of liberties unless they actually do something wrong. Right?

So why prejudge Muslims?

DK

(Report Comment)
Justin Enson November 2, 2011 | 11:08 a.m.

"Not a political issue, but somehow it seems again the conservatives wish to start at the source to prevent horrific crimes, while liberals show content to wait, then react. Which seems most ridiculous and demagogic?"

So how would the conservatives not politically start at the source to prevent horrific crimes?

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 2, 2011 | 11:55 a.m.

I started on this thread by bringing up a point made by a muslim woman who has escaped her torturers. She has been constantly dissapointed that liberal Americans are so accepting of hardline muslims, yet they attack hardline Christians with a passion. She is an atheist now and is not pro Christian, but is very much anti-Islam. Her name is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Her story was brought to my attention on these comment boards by another poster. (feel free to jump in and take credit if you are out there...)
Those of you defending Islam on blanket terms are being naive and are part of the problem. I am simply making the point that it needs to be o.k. to ask and talk about the very real issues of Islam that are incapatible with modern day human rights. Genital mutilation, subjugation of women, etc...
I just looked at Wiki for a minute and it told the story of a lecture she was giving at the University of Pitt. It required tight security because of protests by the muslim community. Pittsburgh imam Fouad El Bayly, said that Hirsi Ali deserved the death sentence and she should be tried and judged in a Muslim country. Hmmm, I thought all musilims immediately became fighters for human rights once they stepped out of the middle east or Africa and in to America? Yet, here we have a quote from an Imam in America saying this woman should be removed from America and sent to an Islamic Country so she can be put to death for being critical of a religion that supports human rights atrocities.
You can be led to water, but...

(Report Comment)
Justin Enson November 2, 2011 | 12:10 p.m.

I see that you mentioned genital mutilation. Please detail your position on infant circumcision.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking November 2, 2011 | 12:18 p.m.

"I am simply making the point that it needs to be o.k. to ask and talk about the very real issues of Islam that are incapatible with modern day human rights. Genital mutilation, subjugation of women, etc..."

It is. This is a huge issue in this country, much more than it should be. However, it's not relevant to most Muslims in developed countries.

Islamic countries don't have the market for human rights violations cornered by any means. And a lot of people worldwide are uncomfortable with, or even hostile to, developed, largely Christian countries telling them how to run their societies.

DK

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 2, 2011 | 12:34 p.m.

@Justin
Go look up both in the dictionary and you will see the difference yourself. You have identified yourself as someone looking for an argument instead of looking for discussion or growth. I am done with you. Have a good one...

@Mark
I agree with what you have said in the above post.
I don't want to tell Saudia Arabia that they need to be wiped off the face of the planet because they won't let women drive.
However, don't ask me to accept someone in to our society if they plan to continue to practice human rights violations that are not acceptable in our society. It's that simple.

(Report Comment)
Justin Enson November 2, 2011 | 12:46 p.m.

So perhaps you should have attended the meeting and asked those who were in attendance their positions on your list of human rights violations. You are using a few incidents to infer that Muslims are committed to the violation of human rights.

You wouldn't appreciate it if I were to rail against your religion because you picket funerals, blow up abortion clinics, and kill doctors. That's essentially the same as you're doing here and it is a gross lapse of ethics.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking November 2, 2011 | 1:16 p.m.

"It's that simple."

That's what we have jails for.

DK

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 2, 2011 | 1:51 p.m.

kumbaya...

(Report Comment)
Ray Shapiro November 2, 2011 | 2:24 p.m.

("Muslims around the world understand exactly this doctrine and it rules their collective behaviour preventing them from ever integrating into western democratic societies.

In this article we will explore the doctrine of Al-Wala wal Bara and explain why it prevents Muslims from integrating into Australian society. Muslims can never join our Multicultural experience because of this doctrine, and this should be reflected in our immigration policy and domestic policy.")
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option...

("Notable, too, why Muslim students are seeking to create Islamic havens (or enclaves) in universities: as one of them put it, "Arab [code for "Muslim"] and American students have a difficult time befriending each other because people naturally gravitate towards others with similar backgrounds and interests." In fact, this is a product of Islam's own doctrine of wala' wa bara', which commands Muslims to be loyal to one another, while completely disassociating themselves from non-Muslims.")
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/10629/does...

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 2, 2011 | 4:13 p.m.

Mark - I'm beginning to believe liberals are "that simple". Google "Muslim Honor Killings" as previously asked,count them and tomorrow when you finish, tell us why you consider them "not" common. "A lawsuit that challenges the official cooperation by the city of Dearborn, Mich., which has one of the largest populations of Muslims in the U.S., with Islamic interests makes a stunning allegation: that under the recognized "Shariah" law in the city, there have been "honor killing" murders that have been "covered up."An ex-muslim describing honor killings says, "The killers mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Koran and Islam." You might also prove this statement untrue.

How many billions are we spending to teach "the poor black kids" to live their lives according to the mandates of our laws and culture? However, we cannot discuss the advent of foreign immigrants killing their relatives in our society because "it is in their culture, we always arrest them and the crimes are rare." My gosh!

(Report Comment)
Tony Robertson November 2, 2011 | 8:01 p.m.

@mike mentor: I think that was me, who posted the Guardian piece on Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I have a good deal of respect and admiration for her. Christopher Hitchens touted her, back during the loony riots over the Jyllands-Posten's Mohammed cartoons.

Here is a link to an Intelligence Squared debate, which featured Ali. These debates are very good, better than most of the trash on TV.
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.p...

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 2, 2011 | 8:18 p.m.

Thanks Tony ;-)

(Report Comment)
Tony Robertson November 2, 2011 | 9:31 p.m.

The debate I linked above, "Islam is a Religion of Peace", included a few mentions of Lutherans. That got me to thinking of this satirical gem, from five years ago:
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/200...

(Report Comment)
Tim Trayle November 2, 2011 | 9:35 p.m.

Mike M, wrote this to me: "Where is your evidence that what I have relayed is wrong?"

No Mike, that is simply a logically illegitimate move. You wrote that (1) the St. Louis mosque defended this murder as simply being part of Muslim culture, and (2) have added to that that "liberals" somehow agree.
.
Point 2 is ridiculous on its face.
.
As for Point 1, it's not up to me to prove you are wrong. As the accuser, it's up to YOU to provide evidence to support your claims about the St. Louis mosque's official defense of this horrific murder. You say it's an easy matter, so why not oblige?
.
If there is something unfair--or unclear--in what I'm asking, please point it out. Again, no one disputes that this murder (a) occurred, or (b) was probably a honor killing. I simply noted that at the time, the FBI seemed to want to make an additional, or separate, argument--which had to do with Palestina Isa's murder as reflecting a security risk to a terrorist operation. That's simply a matter of public record. I do not claim to know whether the charge was merited.
.
But the importance of YOUR claims hinges upon the St. Louis Muslim community's alleged (by you) defense of a despicable act (and, additionally, liberals' defense of it). Right? Your main argument is that U.S. Muslims accept and excuse this sort of thing, and that a fifth column of U.S. liberals do too. That's a extraordinarily heavy charge, and I think you ought to support it with evidence. That seems fair to me. I hope you'd agree. If you don't feel that you should should support it with evidence, then you probably ought to explain that too.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 3, 2011 | 8:13 a.m.

mike m. - Tony Robertson is also an admitted SNL watcher. Pay no attention.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking November 3, 2011 | 8:43 a.m.

frank christian wrote:

"However, we cannot discuss the advent of foreign immigrants killing their relatives in our society because "it is in their culture, we always arrest them and the crimes are rare."

Well, here some of the Wikipedia article on honor killing (thee first thing on my search - I can't spend a whole lot of time on this right now). The incidence worldwide is about 5,000/year, but may be more. That's out of more than a billion
Muslims, and is not limited to just them.

"However, as noted by Tahira Shaid Khan, a professor of women’s issues in Pakistan, within the Qur'an there is no mentioning of anything that allows for or justifies honor killings."

"It is thus believed that it is not Islam as a religion, but Islamic culture, and the prominent and long-standing view that women are considered property, as the sources of for honor killings. [21]"

"The article also suggests that, although there are not many cases of honor killings within the United States, ninety percent of documented murders in Europe and the United States featured killers who were Muslim, and most of the murders were Muslims killing other Muslims."

The above quote also could be interpreted as "ninety percent of documented murders featured killers from Muslim countries with a cultural history of honor killings, who happened to be Muslims".

I'm sure it happens, and like other murders, that some are covered up or otherwise never solved. However, I see no reason to blame Islam itself, but rather the cultures in which these practices have been handed down through history.

Japan had a twist on honor killing in their ritual suicides, which were expected of people who had dishonored themselves or their country. They'd never heard of Islam.

There's also the question of the sanity of those who practice honor killing. Awareness of mental illness is typically poor in countries where some of these immigrants come from. Moreover, many "crimes of passion" (e.g witnessed adultery) may otherwise be labeled as honor killings.

Female genital mutilation is also much more a cultural practice, having been done in sub-Saharan Africa for centuries, regardless of religion (or lack of it). They practice it because they always have, not because Islam talls them to.

Islam can exist in a modern, civilized nation as well as any other religion if its practitioners simply accept the freedom of religion that everyone else does. Practices that are against the law should be punished. Other than that, if we truly believe in freedom of religion (which I question every now and then), we must accept Muslims like we'd accept any other religion. And that's quite a conservative concept - dating from the Founding Fathers.

DK

(Report Comment)
John Schultz November 3, 2011 | 9:33 a.m.

What's worse in Frank's mind, being a liberal or an SNL watcher?

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 3, 2011 | 10:29 a.m.

@Tim
1. Sorry but your inflated sense of self importance isn't matching up with my lack of a feeling of responsibility to prove everything I post to you.

2. Even if I did feel the need, I have to admit that I failed to document all the events of 1989 as a multimedia presentation on my commodore so that 20 some odd years later I could prove to a naive progressive that what I experienced as a teenager was true.

As I said, this was a huge deal. You can go to the library yourself and look at the newspapers if you are interested.

There were a couple of other posts in the thread above that mentioned times when Imam's from Pittsburgh and Michigan have made statement that clearly conflict with our laws regarding human and civil rights as well.

Rather than seeking enlightenment from me, maybe you want to go look for yourselves at some of the links provided or just google to hear some stories from people that have actually experienced life as an Islamic woman. It's out there waiting for you...

Mark correctly pointed out that the number of honor killings is very small when compared to the muslim population, but unfortunately they are only the tip of the iceburg as far as human rights violations against women and children and gays etc in the name of culture or religion.

Back to the basics.

Anyone who plans to violate the human right of another no matter what the reason is not welcome in society. Basic human rights come before freedom of religion or anything else. Period.

(Report Comment)
Michael Williams November 3, 2011 | 10:38 a.m.

Well, here comes the spam again......

(Report Comment)
Joy Mayer November 3, 2011 | 10:48 a.m.

@Michael — Darnit! We're doing a better job of keeping up, but this one cropped up at an unexpected time. Sorry about that.
— Joy Mayer,
Columbia Missourian

(Report Comment)
Sally Willis November 3, 2011 | 11:40 a.m.

What spam I'm missing what you're talking about? I feel left out!

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 3, 2011 | 11:46 a.m.

Mark F. - "The incidence worldwide is about 5,000/year, but may be more." "Many women's groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect the victims are at least four times more."

"within the Qur'an there is no mentioning of anything that allows for or justifies honor killings." "In theory, it is the Muslim's duty to revolt against an imam who makes unjust decisions, and some sects quickly decreed that he should be assassinated." The motto ("power belongs only to God") was first used in the assassination of caliph 'Ali "in the year 40 of the Hejira" This same slogan has condemned hundreds of imams and Muslim leaders, the last of whom was President Anwar Sadat of Egypt. Islam and Democracy, Fear of the Modern World. Fatima Mernissi (Turkish lady) 1992. She makes no bones about Islam as the big gorilla in every Muslim house, in past and now. She sees the ability for Islam to co-exist, because of the exposure to the Western World after Gulf War 1 and the change Arab women have been able to achieve afterward.

My position and I believe most other conservatives is to agree, but that no help is afforded the assimilation by ignoring the acts of violence in our effort "to get along".

I also fear the liberal view that we should "accept" because, eventually, we will all be living under the flag of the United Nations.

(Report Comment)
Mark Foecking November 3, 2011 | 12:04 p.m.

frank christian wrote:

"I also fear the liberal view that we should "accept" because, eventually, we will all be living under the flag of the United Nations."

This country was founded on freedom of religion. If members of a certain religion are performing criminal acts, they need to be punished, regardless of their religion. We have to accept the religion - it's in the Constitution.

No one is going to impose a one world government, least of all the UN. That would be a sure course to world war.

DK

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 3, 2011 | 12:09 p.m.

mike mentor - "As I said, this was a huge deal. You can go to the library yourself and look at the newspapers if you are interested."

You are experiencing the "lazy liberal syndrome". The person that feels so secure and superior from the information they have obtained from liberal sources (everyone knows that any office holder or other bearer of information shown "live" on Fox News is lying to the viewer, because Fox provides the site.), must be spoon fed contradictory information and can't be expected to search for himself. Your response was proper, in short, phhfffste!

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 3, 2011 | 2:15 p.m.

Mark F. "No one is going to impose a one world government, least of all the UN. *That would be a sure course to world war."*

Who would start it? The United States is the only country not yet embracing the U.N. A progressive liberal Executive and Congressional branch would never raise a finger to U.N. Our educational system, for forty years, has done more to destroy the idea of sovereignty and patriotism in our U.S. than than to teach the 3R's. Your refusal to respect a piece of cloth (our flag) is proof of that.What do you think the "diversity training" and "multiculturalism" has been about? A progressive liberal majority would give away, any and all our freedoms rather than go to War. That attempt at World Government would cause world war seems a shallow statement to me.

(Report Comment)
Jack Hamm November 3, 2011 | 2:31 p.m.

I am beginning to think that Frank is a master troll that has been laughing at us for years behind his computer screen as he gets people riled up. His comments are just too farfetched and too divorced from any logical thought pattern.

(Report Comment)
Derrick Fogle November 3, 2011 | 7:59 p.m.

@Jack: I think Frank may be mildy autistic. His lack of ability to understand or appreciate common social humor, his incredibly narrow and concrete (rocks and sand, all mixed up and set solidly in place) view of the world, and his "Very Serious Person" nature all point to some kind of spectrum disorder.

@Mike: I asked, you provided, I believe. I do find it interesting that killing appears to have been an execution to mitigate a secrecy threat to a terrorist operation, and the 'honor killing' angle was basically framed.

I agree that the Muslim culture is a cesspool of human rights abuses, especially against women. But, I'll remind you that black men got the right to vote in this supposedly Christian nation before *any* woman did. Millions of women and children have been killed or wounded by US military operations in the last 10 years.

@Mark: Doesn't engaging Frank get tiresome after awhile? I've found the FrankBot mildly amusing in the past, but... after awhile it becomes a bore.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 3, 2011 | 8:42 p.m.

DF -"his incredibly narrow and concrete (rocks and sand, all mixed up and set solidly in place)"

This used to be known as the ability to determine "right from wrong" Look the words up.

"Millions of women and children have been killed or wounded by US military operations in the last 10 years."

Politically inspired, inaccurate statements of this nature bug the hell out of me. Over 800,000,total, in Iraq lost their lives. Those women and children still living have a far better chance at a life of peace and prosperity than any of them did with Saddam and Sons in control (of their lives). That the progressive opinion cannot consider this improvement for "the women and children" they mouth such concern for is a source of disgust for those of us truly concerned with the welfare of humanity.

"@Mark: Doesn't engaging Frank get tiresome after awhile? I've found the FrankBot mildly amusing in the past, but... after awhile it becomes a bore."

OK then, I'll engage you too - verbally.

(Report Comment)
Gregg Bush November 3, 2011 | 9:06 p.m.

Muslim culture is
A cesspool? They didn't bomb
Sixteenth Street Baptist.

Let's call a crime a
Crime. But when you talk culture -
Your eye has a log.

Use a narrower
Brush when painting others. All
Must atone something.

Due to KC's priest -
Do we excuse Romero's
Murder at our hands?

Extraordinary
Rendition bloody's all our
Hands. Where's our cesspool?

Are we absolved from
Supporting Mubarak or
Ferdinand Marcos?

As an atheist,
I say a pox on fiction.
Condemn all, not one.

Nationalism
Is a fiction, too. Lines are
On maps; not on land.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 3, 2011 | 9:24 p.m.

G. Bush - I wait for you to impart to us, the words a guru should impart to an eagerly awaiting humanity. "Wet birds never fly at night". - Jackie Vernon, one who truly knew how to be "funny" and only attempted to humiliate one, himself.

(Report Comment)
Derrick Fogle November 3, 2011 | 9:28 p.m.

@Gregg: I absolutely will not defend the way eastern cultures tend to treat women. It's wrong, and it needs to stop.

Guns and bombs won't accomplish that, though.

(Report Comment)
Derrick Fogle November 3, 2011 | 9:50 p.m.

For the record, I'm also appalled at attacks on women's rights by the political/Christian right wing of the US. It appears the right wing in this country is intensely jealous of the way eastern cultures get to subjugate their women.

(Report Comment)
Gregg Bush November 3, 2011 | 9:51 p.m.

It's not a function
Of "Eastern Cultures" - that is
My only concern.

Where's the sexism
In Taoism or Shinto,
In modern Islam?

Turkey prosecutes
Crimes, they're a part of NATO -
And also Muslim.

A mistake is to
Be caught up - assign blame where
None really exists.

Think about Nate Phelps -
Does he blame all Baptists for
The crimes of his dad?

One should not excuse
Crimes - even those that ordered
The waterboarding.

(Report Comment)
Tony Robertson November 3, 2011 | 10:06 p.m.

Radical, political Islamists have killed more Americans in the last 30 years than radical, political Baptists have. Or Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. I may not have fit that fact into seventeen handy syllables, but a fact, it is.

Ali said it well, in the debate I linked above. Zeba Khan is, unfortunately, the exception, and not the rule, when it comes to those speaking most loudly. Irshad Manji is a good spokeswoman, too, every bit as brave as Ali. Being an outspoken Muslim lesbian takes more guts than most of us have.

That's not broad-brush criticism, either. Thus, my choice of adjectives, radical & political. And the distinction between Islamists and Muslims. Multi-culti relativist pablum does not seriously address these issues.

(Report Comment)
Tony Robertson November 3, 2011 | 11:15 p.m.

Gregg Bush asks "Where's our cesspool?"

Luckily, there's polling for that:
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/200...

(Report Comment)
Gregg Bush November 3, 2011 | 11:47 p.m.

Dear Mister Moghul,
Keep up the work that you do -
Still much to be done.

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith November 4, 2011 | 3:10 a.m.

@ Tony Robertson:

Thanks for shedding light on this matter.

I was confused: when I saw "Where's our cesspool?" I thought we might either be discussing Washington, D. C. or were trying to physically locate some institution of higher learning, which was possibly misplaced.

They haven't finished the body count from the Lutheran depredations.

I've always liked Lutherans. Growing up, their church was directly across the unpaved street from our church, OUR LADY OF PERPETUAL INDEBTEDNESS. (Obviously we were of the Greek Orthodox faith.)

(Report Comment)
Tony Robertson November 4, 2011 | 7:12 a.m.

@Gregg Bush: Regarding your 11:47 pm post, I wholeheartedly agree. Perhaps you could compose a counter-fatwa in haiku. That would be some positive cross-cultural pollination, there.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 4, 2011 | 7:19 a.m.

D. Fogle - I noticed, earlier you singled out the Christian Religion for criticism. Here you do it again. " I'm also appalled at attacks on women's rights by the political/Christian right wing of the US." I thought we had been told to accept all religions as they are, because as one said, "It's in the Constitution!"

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 4, 2011 | 9:10 a.m.

The apologists
are not constrained by logic
this has been made clear

since no lines stop me
I will be helping myself
to greggs food and drink

I will conserve mine
until his are all used up
kumbaya says me

big thanks to Ellis
lightening up comedy
needed delivered

(Report Comment)
Ellis Smith November 4, 2011 | 11:48 a.m.

@ mike mentor:

You are welcome. We all serve as best we can.

"What's yours is mine; what's mine is mine alone."

BTW have any of you read a biography - any biography - of Karl Marx? As a human being, responsible to his family and friends, Marx was a flaming failure.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 4, 2011 | 1:23 p.m.

"As a human being, responsible to his family and friends, Marx was a flaming failure." Not sure, but didn't the entire family starve to death while he sat in a cafe, drinking and trying to write something?

(Report Comment)
Bari Bates November 5, 2011 | 6:00 p.m.

I'm Bari Bates, the reporter for the Missourian that covered this event-- I think that it's important to understand and to discuss that a lot of assumptions that people may have stem from media reports about extremists.

Unfortunately, reports of average and peaceful individuals tend to not be part of the everyday news discussion.

To the best of my knowledge, the entire purpose of Islam Awareness Week sponsored by the Muslim Student Organization was to dispel misconceptions about the Muslim faith. One topic brought up in several comments above was the treatment of women in predominantly Muslim countries.

I don't believe it's fair to use extremist examples to define all countries or populations, which is why I felt that what Mr. Khan, one of my sources used in the story, had to say was so important. It's perhaps easy to look at countries where women have been marginalized and declare that to be the "norm," but I implore you to look at countries like Indonesia, who elected their first female president in 2001. Indonesia has the largest population of Muslims in the world, and elected a Muslim woman as president well before several western countries. That's hardly an example of maltreatment of women world-wide.

(Report Comment)
frank christian November 6, 2011 | 8:52 a.m.

Bari B. - http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/John...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/indonesi...

"That's hardly an example of maltreatment of women world-wide."

(Report Comment)
mike mentor November 6, 2011 | 9:52 a.m.

@Bari
Hi, thanks for joining...
I agree that part of the mission of understanding has to include examples of how moderates practice, but what would be so hard about moderates like Moghul to spend 5 minutes saying there are many countries in the middle east and north africa where a hardline form of Islam is practiced and this needs to be changed? He goes right up to the edge by saying, "If you go into it word for word, some laws violate human rights, so you have to take it in context of where and when it was first written. Most countries that have a significant Muslim population apply [it] differently”, but doesn't go all the way. IMHO this would affect change quicker than not talking about it at all and leaving that elephant in the room.
Others have brought up the Westboro folks. While those fourteen people in no way carry the same weight as the more than 14 countries in the middle east and north africa where oppressive forms of Islam are practiced, let's use them as an example. When they do what they do and cite the verses they cite, christians don't just say, "well everyone interprets christianity differently and to each their own...". They might say something along the lines of these people are freaks and in no way resemble the form of Christianity we practice...

(Report Comment)

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